Test Booster Trial - anyone interested?

[Bazza20]

So from what I can gather there will be 3 people in the trail and no placebo or control.

I don't want to bash this great idea you have going bioflex but while the results will be interesting they will tell us pretty much nothing about the test boosters working or not.

 

[trofius]

consistancy with all aspects need to be considered

diet, needs to remain constant, and with enought calories for the body to use the extra test if its produced

participants need to already be on a steady, linear program, if they start going harder at gym, or change their routine, this may also increase test

3 groups would be good, more than 30 subjects per group would make the results statistically valid.

Normal testosterone range is from memory 14-50

blood test should maybe include testosterone, and hcg, the test would be called a free androgen index i am pretty sure (people that have had their test looked at could add in here) test0sterone by itself my not give a true picture..

blood would need to be taken at the same time of the day...


BIOflex, have you considered approaching a university, with a human movements /sports sciences department or clinical trials company, and see if they would be interested in conducting an experiment, it may be a good research topic for someone, all you would have to do is supply the products..

 

[nazzysmith]

IMO someone cutting on a strict diet would be an ideal part of the test... There diet would theoretically be better controlled.... And therefore it could be suggested that the blood work before and after the test booster would be more indicative as to whether or not the test booster was the cause of raising Testosterone....

NOTE: That if the Test booster worked for cutting programs A HELL OF A LOT OF GUYS WOULD JUMP ON!!!

Also what about testing training partners who train in the same program... Give one a placebo and one the test booster...

 

[MaxBrenner]

On a side note guys, I'll do up the 'test subjects' diets for the trial if they wish For free of course!

 

[candyflip]

I'm now a confirmed Trial participant, but I must state my concerns re: Bazza and others are raising, that with just 3 of us in the Trial (sorry I didn't read that and absorb it properly the first time through), not much can be actually proven.

I agree that a better suggestion would be to have this either under MaxBrenner's full direction (he chooses more than 10 participants), or give it to a University or other lab, who can control this far better.

I do want to help, but to sacrifice my current personal goals to prove your products, I really want to be able to PROVE (or perhaps even disprove) them in a meaningful way. Just having free supps (of this type) is hardly enough - I think you should have loftier goals, if you really stand behind what you sell.

Obviously this is just my opinion and if it ultimately precludes me from your group, so be it.

 

[nazzysmith]

What dosages will you be using for the

Test Booster
DIM
DAA

Might pick me up some and just give it a go anyways....

 

[MaxBrenner]

I'm now a confirmed Trial participant, but I must state my concerns re: Bazza and others are raising, that with just 3 of us in the Trial (sorry I didn't read that and absorb it properly the first time through), not much can be actually proven.

I agree that a better suggestion would be to have this either under MaxBrenner's full direction (he chooses more than 10 participants), or give it to a University or other lab, who can control this far better.

I do want to help, but to sacrifice my current personal goals to prove your products, I really want to be able to PROVE (or perhaps even disprove) them in a meaningful way. Just having free supps (of this type) is hardly enough - I think you should have loftier goals, if you really stand behind what you sell.

Obviously this is just my opinion and if it ultimately precludes me from your group, so be it.

I totally agree with you

If it is going to be done, it needs to be done with a large group under correctly controlled conditions.

 

[nazzysmith]

One other thing Bioflex...

Will you be packaging the 3 up as a stack through Bulk Nutrients????

 

[Big Mick]

I am also a confirmed participant

I am happy to take up Max Brenners offer as well, but I feel I have my diet sorted to some degree already. (but may be not), I have been writing down what I eat, so it's easily checked over I guess.

I think people read too much into it, if it's one participant or 100 who really cares?? If this goes ahead I will either increase my test or I won't and I will be getting full blood done to show this.

I am happy to keep my diet steady as is currently for the period of the trail. There will always be variables, but I feel this is a very simple straight forward trail conducted with real people under real conditions (just like the customer that will be using it). We are not lab rats, and this will either show real life results or it won't, results that customers can expect if they use the product.

I feel keep it simple here is the key, and do not over complicate things.

I think BN should be applauded for actually putting their product on the line, which is more than I can say for other supplement sellers/dealers.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[Bazza20]

I am also a confirmed participant

I am happy to take up Max Brenners offer as well, but I feel I have my diet sorted to some degree already. (but may be not), I have been writing down what I eat, so it's easily checked over I guess.

I think people read too much into it, if it's one participant or 100 who really cares?? If this goes ahead I will either increase my test or I won't and I will be getting full blood done to show this.

I am happy to keep my diet steady as is currently for the period of the trail. There will always be variables, but I feel this is a very simple straight forward trail conducted with real people under real conditions (just like the customer that will be using it). We are not lab rats, and this will either show real life results or it won't, results that customers can expect if they use the product.

I feel keep it simple here is the key, and do not over complicate things.

I think BN should be applauded for actually putting their product on the line, which is more than I can say for other supplement sellers/dealers.

Just my two cents worth.

It's not so simple Mick. You need lots of people to get reliable results. You need placebos and controls to try and account for other variables. It's not about making things complicated its about getting results that actually mean something.

Like I said it's great for bioflex to put this idea up but 3 people with no control or placebo will not tell you anything about the test boosters work or not.

 

[Figjam Brah]

I think BN should be applauded for actually putting their product on the line, which is more than I can say for other supplement sellers/dealers.

^^This


Its really good to see.

Look forward to the result.

 

[Big Mick]

Like I said it's great for bioflex to put this idea up but 3 people with no control or placebo will not tell you anything about the test boosters work or not.

Trust me I fully understand what you are saying!

BUT....

Personally I think it will give a reasonable indication, I agree it will not be irrefutable evidence that will stand up to all scrutiny, but I think it will give potential customer a reasonable indication of what they might be able to expect, no more no less.

I doubt Bioflex/BN is trying to create history here with this very basic trail, but it might be just enough to make a more thorough trail, possibly fully blown university study worth while considering in the future.

On another note:

Just wondering if it would be worth while to include the ZMA Complex to make it a full test/anti E stack, its only $29 for three months supply from BN.

What dosages will you be using for the

Test Booster
DIM
DAA

Might pick me up some and just give it a go anyways....

It appears the whole stack is not really that expensive, looking at the BN web site, and would be well worth it if it shows any results at all, I am guessing dosage will be recommended dosage on the pack it comes in.

One other thing Bioflex...

Will you be packaging the 3 up as a stack through Bulk Nutrients????

Would not be a bad idea marketing wise......what about ZMA complex as part of that??

I am already using BN Pre workout NT, and BCAA's on weight training days (have been for a while), as well as one or two BN WPI shakes per day, I guess that should not really affect any of the study, since I been using them for close to three months now??

 

[Bazza20]

Mick, 3 people and no control or placebo will not even give what could be classed as a reasonable indication.

 

[candyflip]

Mick - I do understand your point of view.

Mine is explained by this. First, any trial using just 3 people is statistically and scientifically a bust. To explain why would take a lot more words than I have time to write, but I have studied supplement trials for half my life (and I get the feeling Bazza also knows what he's talking about in this area) and on trust, take it from us, this is a waste of time as currently outlined.

What you get out of it *may* be increased test, which would be very nice. And some free supps.

What Bioflex get out of it is the ability to say (just an example, this may not be their motive) 'in our trials, all participants showed increased test'. Personally, I don't want to be part of a trial that is fundamentally scientifically flawed (should it go ahead as currently suggested) and that would possibly then be used to convince other trainees of the benefit of those supplements (in advertising etc), when I know that there would be ZERO proof that they caused any change in the test at all (note: the supps *may* be the reason for the change, but the trial won't have proved that in any way whatsoever). So it just wouldn't sit right with me.

That's just a personal choice about being the subject of such a trial - obviously Bioflex would seek to get something out of all this that helps their business. I doubt they are merely philanthropists seeking to further the cause of bodybuilding.

So its a commercial transaction - and as such, I would not like to be used in that way.

 

[Big Mick]

So if there is a change it would prove nothing???

Well I am sorry to disagree, as I feel it would show something, I also believe Bioflex asked for volunteers, so anyone that feels they are not interested in being part of this, do not have to be part of this. No one is forcing anyone to participate.

If you do not feel right about it, don't do it.

Of couse Bioflex want something out of this and I believe they are taking a risk (or showing some confidence in these products) by doing this in an uncensored forum. They must believe it does something, as there is a chance that no change takes place, and the sups do nothing, yet they are still putting this out there.

I mean they are doing something and people complain it's not good enough, if they do nothing people complain, if they get a hundred people will complain that they are not using 1000, etc etc. Give people an inch and they want a mile comes to mind.

I personally am interested (not just for the free sups), but as it is something I have been thinking about since I started back at training, especially due to my age. I would even be interested just to see what my test level is.

I mean BN seem to be doing ok, and people are buying the stuff based what ever reason.

Just my two cents worth anyway.

PS of course it's a comerical transcation, or did you think they are doing it because they love Candyflip, and they want to feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[Bazza20]

Mick with this sort of trial if there is a change all it proves is that the test level changed, nothing else.

How do you know it wouldn't have changed anyway? How do you know it wasn't the placebo effect? How do you know it didnt change due to something else you did or some other factor? How do you know it wasnt just natural variation?

There are so many variables that wouldn't be accounted for that the results are meaningless.

Like I said before I think it is a great idea what bioflex is doing, just pointing out some flaws if he wants some meaningful results.

 

[Big Mick]

Mick with this sort of trial if there is a change all it proves is that the test level changed, nothing else.

How do you know it wouldn't have changed anyway? How do you know it wasn't the placebo effect? How do you know it didnt change due to something else you did or some other factor? How do you know it wasnt just natural variation?

There are so many variables that wouldn't be accounted for that the results are meaningless.

Like I said before I think it is a great idea what bioflex is doing, just pointing out some flaws if he wants some meaningful results.

Yes I agree to some degree, I have mentioned this before in another thread I think, where I said that to ensure accurate results for stuff like this you would need two identical selves doing identical things apart from the one variable. Another way of course would be to use 100, 1000, or even 10000 people in a double blind study, but then logistics and expense comes into play in a big way. It would take full time staff and analysts to conduct such a study.

Like I said earlier in this thread I think may be this is testing the water, may be if there are any positive results in this mini case study, it might lead to bigger trails being considered in the future, then again may be not.

Looking at it broadly, each and every one of us is a case study in itself, we all train differently, we all eat differently, we are all different ages, size, body type and level of fitness and strength, we all aim for slightly different things, some want size no matter what, other want strength, some want to get lean, some want to increase athletic performance some want a combination of any of these or none.

Let's just see what happens, may be nothing may be something, who really knows, but I like to say again that I think Bioflex is putting their product on the line right here and right now.

 

[Bazza20]

Mick you are spot on. Like you said it's not possible to have identical selves doing everything identical to see if something works. Double bind placebo controlled trials with lots of people are the next best thing but even then the results are not definite. Results need to be repeatable over many studies.

This is definitely not the responsibility of bioflex to pay for and organise. Like I said the results will be interesting but I'm just pointing out the big limitations to what it will actually tell us. For example It's quite possible the test booster works but because of the small uncontrolled trail, the results go down due to chance or some other factor.

 

[trofius]

What we need is to get a base line, ie test subject would have to have multiple blood tests say a month apart, same time of day, for 3 episodes, then start the test boooster, and continue with the blood test every month for 3 months, you would become your own control group.

the results would still just indicate how the product works for you however, and not a population., ie "results may vary"

 

[Bazza20]

Trofius, good idea, that will give you a bit of a base line reading and give some more information.

But it is still does not reliably tell us if it even works for that person. It is still open for the placebo effect to influence the results or many other factors during that time. Example I started eating ice cream every night for the last month and my strength has gone up in that same time. Does that mean that for me ice cream is proven to increase strength.

Really it is just not possible to get reliable results with such small numbers.