To Stronglift or Not?

[Aaron]

After 6 weeks on Stronglifts 5x5, I can't help but wonder why some of my lifts are below those that which many first begin with.

I started with the following 17/11/09:

Squat 20.3kg 5x5
Bench Press 20.3kg 5x5
Press 20.3kg 5x5
Deadlift 39.3kg 5x5
Inverted Rows, 3x8
Pushups (from the knees), 10,10,8
Reverse Crunch, 3x12, 20kg counterweight
Prone Bridges 3x30sec

Am now at the following 25/12/09:

Squat 62.8kg 5x5
Bench Press 40.3kg 5x5 (These are starting to feel tough)
Press 32.8kg 5x5 (stalled on the Friday of week 4, [5,5,4,5,4] and the Wednesday of week 5 [5,5,5,4,5], and most recently this Wednesday just passed [5,5,5,3,4])
Deadlift 79.3kg 5x5
Barbell Rows, 40.3kg 5x5 (Replaced inverted rows)
Pushups (from the toes), 7,5,4
Reverse Crunch, 3x12, 4kg counterweight
Prone Bridges 3x34sec (just started increasing time)

I'm 180cm, 85.9kg. I am eating min 3500 cal per day, around 180-200g protein. This is with the help of 3L of milk every day.

I haven't had any problems with SL5x5, but I guess I'm just chasing the perspective of a forum that is perhaps a little less biased towards just the 1 program for beginners.

Advice is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Aaron.

 

[TGM]

I don't know what the stronglifts program is, but I've had good results in my first month of Starting Strength. See my log in the log forum, can't post links just yet.

In the last month I've gained four or five kilos and lost some body fat %. The gains are probably not all muscle, but my shoulders, back, triceps, and thighs are noticably bigger and firmer. My lifts have all been progressing steadily, so the program seems to work for me. It might work for you too, but I don't have enough experience to say.

I'm not counting calories or anything but my diet is pretty similar to yours:

3-4L of whole milk
lots of chicken, fish, turkey, beef
salads
(need to add fruit)
no processed carbs, sugars, soft drink, etc.

 

[Oli]

starting strength > stronglifts. Starting strength was where stronglifts was creatively 'borrowed' from, cept the program was far more detailed.

Guide to Novice Barbell Training, aka the Official RIPPETOE-STARTING STRENGTH FAQ - Bodybuilding.com Forums

best program for a new guy ever, and that version is better than the one in rips book for australians.

Ive got no idea why stronglifts is so popular anyways...

btw - I gained 20kg on this program, and I wasnt even trying that hard.

 

[TGM]

I would get a copy of the book though, that thread leaves out ALOT of information.

 

[nievs]

Were you lifting prior to following stronglifts?

 

[PTC]

You guys are 100 years behind.

the exercises used by these "experts" are ancient.

You guys are missing the main part about lifting....effort....not the rep/set scheme of basic exercises.

Austy, now I'm being honest here, your lifts are dreadful, simply because your following a piece of paper. Its just a piece of paper, thats it, its nothing.

Squatting will give you much better benefits if you do 20 reppers, not 5 as is written in that program.

I had a 19yo boy come to PTC today to lift. He has been lifting serious for 2 years, before that he mucked around in high school. The subject of Strong lifts or whatever else name they give Bill Starrs original 5x5 program now.

This 19yo debunked it, saying nobody owns the basics, and cant stick there name to it. He is 19 and has more commonsense than most people I meet.

Oh, he can lift too. He is only 85kg and 19, but in competition his best lifts are 140kg bench, 255kg squat and 262.5kg deadlift. Thank f u c k he didnt follow those useless programs.

He also powercleaned 110kg and pushed 100kg overhead.

Dont get caught up in those programs, bust your phoopher in the gym, eat lots, rest.

Who gives a toss if your doing 5x5 or 3x8 even 12x2, push as hard as you can.

 

[Oli]

PTC,

for beginners everything works, but some things work better.

Full body routines work better because they move more muscle. For this, a squat, press and pull from the floor should be the basis of every workout.

However, you have to control intensity somehow. Nobody can squat their 5RM for 3x5 three times a week except noobs because they arnt pushing enough weight to stress recovery. Once they get to around 150kgish thats gonna fry them big time. A good way to combat this is to have a high volume day which stresses the muscle, a light day which keeps blood going to it and a low volume day in which a max is performed. This is the basis of 5x5, and why its so fricken damn good.

Overheads and benches should be alternated so that you dont **** your rotator cuffs through imbalances, and deadlifting multiple times a week once you can deadlift x1.5 BW is dumb. Most advanced powerlifters (ie can deadlift >300) deadlift once every other week, or at an extremely low intensity. Matt Kroc only deadlifts coming up to a contest. I think for beginners its best to deadlift once a week for a single set, and do pull ups and rows on the other days.

As for reps, anyone with experience will know that a max 1RM will only work for a few weeks. Sets of 10 are good, but strength doesnt build that quickly. On the other hand, sets of 5 seem to work well, thats why most strength routines are built around sets of 3-5 reps.

This isnt rocket surgery here. I like starting strength because it follows these parameters and sets off a good basis for lifting.

edit: If programming wasnt important then check out this list of IPF lifters coached by sheiko:

eric talmant
wade hooper (world champion)
mike tuscherner
al caslow
alexey sivokon (world champion)
brian siders (world champion)
sergey mor (world champion)
andrey belyaev

Along with most russian, ukrainian and Kazakh teams...

 

[Goosey]

Two STRENGTH coaches I greatly respect are Dr. Ken and Bill Starr. Both of those old moss backs have written extensively as of late about putting the strength back in Strength & Conditioning programs.

CrossFit has embraced conditioning almost exclusively, with strength taking a back seat.

Hear me now, believe me later, exercising will never be a sport.

 

[PTC]

Oli, I didnt read your whole post because I nodded off, but I woke in time to read something about 1 1/2 x bodyweight deadlifts being intense.

Is Austy a boy or a girl?

The average person in the street can deadlift 1 1/2 bodyweight on their first attempt. My 15yo son did double bodyweight on his first attempt, not my strong son, my younger son. Every girl at PTC deadlifts 1.5 x bodyweight, every session.

Set your standards a little higher, you impose limitations based on things you read, not things you try.

When your Elite Oli, follow Elite programs, no argument, but while you cant even rep double bodyweight squats, your still an intermediate lifter, train like one.

The bulk of my advice is for guys starting up to intermediate. Elite guys take gear and wear equipment, they need to train differently.

Like I've said before, I'll put my system up against anything you guys are doing, my lifter(Max) has had all his lifts documented on my website. All his lifting has been based on what I've learnt from reading Dr Ken, Bill Starr, Dan John etc. He too has read all there articles.

Not doing 20 rep squats at the very start is a massive mistake and set back to any novice. Period.

 

[Aaron]

Thanks PTC - this has my intruiged. It's not a training day but I think I'll go and work up to 133kg (all of my plates/bar) just to see if I can do it.

So it's generally achievable? What about maintaining form? Rounding back? etc

I'm a male btw. Very low muscle mass caused by years with no real regular exercise, and 10 hours a day at a desk.

I noticed you recommend the following for beginners:

Squat 3 x 10
Bench press 3 x 8
Bent row 3 x 8
Military press 3 x 8
SLDL 3 x 8
BB curl 3 x 8

What weight should I begin with for each? Should I be doing additional exercises like chins, pull-ups, push-ups, prone bridges, etc?

Should I be doing 20 rep squats at some stage in the week? If so, what weight?

I feel so lost atm!

Regards,

Aaron.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

I defer to Markos' long experience in coaching people and making them stronger, and offer my own small experience and qualifications to say, "yep, it matches what I know."

The key is effort. But most people left to themselves slack off - 90% of new gym members give up in the first three months. So, something has to help them with that effort - it can be a trainer, or a structured programme.

So my advice to a beginner is that they should either,

(a) get a good PT, coach, or experienced training partner, or
(2) pick a programme - almost any programme - and stick to it.

Markos' "just go in and bust your foofer" works extremely well when you are supervised by someone with experience. If you're a complete newbie doing it on your own, this can lead to "instinctive workouts", and most people's instinct is to avoid the hard stuff and not up the weights very often.

That's why someone like me will join a gym in April and be benching 40kg, impressed by the guys benching 80kg... then in September I'm benching 80kg, and they're still benching 80kg, and I'm no longer so impressed by them. Not because I am anything special, just because I've tried to always challenge myself.

If you have someone supervising you, it's much less likely you'll slack off, much more likely you'll keep being challenged. Challenge yourself and you either break something or you get better. Usually you don't break anything

So I say that if you don't have someone supervising you, then it's good to have a structured routine, one saying (for example) "aim for 3 sets of 6-10, begin with 3 sets of 6, then next session 7, then 8, 9 and 10 - when you can do 3x10, add weight and drop the reps back to 6, and so on." Or 3x5, or 2x20, or whatever the hell you like.

If you have that kind of structure, that makes sure that you're always putting the effort in. You have specific goals to reach for.

I don't pretend to know whether 5 rep or 20 rep squats are better. I do know that in the first 6-8 weeks whatever you do, it's more than you were doing before, so your body will adapt and improve.

And I do know that the best workout is the one you stick to. How do you stick to it? You need a trainer, or a structured programme.

There are a few people who can do it without a trainer or structured programme, they are very well-motivated and sensible people. But they're rare. Most of us ain't that, we need a person or piece of paper telling us what to do. No shame in that.

Austy, where are you, mate? There are lots of good coaches and trainers around, and a few experienced people who want training partners.

 

[Oli]

PTC,

I don't lift like an elite. Everything proposed is extremely basic here - just a beginner routine with a squat, press and pull from the floor each session. I'll be doing 5x5 for the next couple of years before making my own routine similar to wendler's 5/3/1.

I'm not denying the success of your lifters but from what Ive seen my own results are comparable. Both my friend and I have done very well on starting strength (my friend squats 200~) and part of the reason I'd attribute to that is because when we got to the later stages of training we weren't frying ourselves trying to deadlift 170kg for 5x5 each session.

 

[Aaron]

@Kyle Aaron - I live in Numurkah, Victoria (38km North of Shepparton). I work 06:30-18:00, and barely have any time at home, let alone going to a gym.

Determination isn't a problem - I'll bust my balls. My weights even went with me to my folks in Cranbourne, so that I could workout Christmas day If you're going to do something, do it properly.

I understand that beginners will see great increases based on the fact that their muscles aren't used to any real level of stimulation - so anything is better than nothing. However, I'm investing my time, and I want the best return possible.

$$$ Are a problem re gyms, personal trainers. I have a bench press, a 6ft standard barbell (6.8kg), standard dumbells (1kg), and 127kg of plates (4x20kg, 2x10kg, 2x5kg, 4x2.5kg, 4x1.25kg, 4x0.5kg). I use a couple of bits of timber concreted into buckets as a squat rack. No spotter available.

Cheers,

Aaron.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Aaron, you live in the sticks alright! Bloody Shepp

If you find yourself going down to Cranbourne again, stop by Markos' at PTCFrankston.com - he may or may not suit you as a trainer long-term, but you should be able to put up with him for a few sessions to get good form on your exercises, and it's not expensive if you join in with a group.

For my part, since most of us already spend a heap of cash on gyms and equipment and supplements, to spend a hundred bucks or so to make sure we're doing it properly isn't a big deal. I'll get more out of $100 worth of training time than I'll get out of $100 of Beefcake Anabolic Death 3000. But of course each of us has to decide what we think is worth our money. Just check out your options fully, is all I suggest.

 

[PTC]

I will acknowledge that all those "name" programs utilise the best exercises.

That and $2.50 will get you a can of Pepsi Max anywhere.

Its very hard to convey effort on the internet, but trust me, when you see it, you'll know it.

I had a guy start 4 weeks ago. He had been lifting for 2 years in a commercial gym. He had never done a leg exercise, can bench 130kg.

During his first set of squats with an empty bar, he started to shake on the 5-6th rep. I did a single with 40kg.

Four weeks later, training twice a week, he squatted 100kg x 3.

He had never done a single DL either. He pulled 150kg @ 80kg yesterday.

The exercises I use are the same that those pushing programs use.

Why is this guy getting stronger quicker.

Oliver, while I think your lifts are excellent, and I've said that before, you probably shouldnt compare with others that lift at PTC. You weigh 92kg. Chris won the last comp at PTC weighing 92kg.

Squat 200kg
Deadlift 266kg
BP 152.5kg (close grip, injured)
clean 120kg
C&P 120kg

All on the same day. If you and your mates are as strong as Chris, I would love you to come and compete, you will have a ball.

Leave your belt at home.

Now, back to the OP. Just because youve got a program with the best exercises and your eating right, please dont expect to make great progress unless your busting your ass, its as simple as that.

I cant believe you went to Cranbourne and didnt drop in lol

 

[Aaron]

Now, back to the OP. Just because youve got a program with the best exercises and your eating right, please dont expect to make great progress unless your busting your ass, its as simple as that.

Ok, so I pick starting weights that are 'just' within reach, and bust my balls every session to increase? This is what I've read it as, and that makes sense. Looking forward to tomorrow to begin this new outlook.

I cant believe you went to Cranbourne and didnt drop in lol

I'll be down in a week or two... need to book in to Alleycatz for another session so will be in Franga.

Cheers,

Aaron.

 

[PTC]

If you guys are looking for books to read over the holidays try

From the ground up by Dan John
Super squats by Randell Strossen

If you can get your hands on any issues of Milo:A strength journal, you will be occupied for a very long time

To give you guys an idea on simplicity, here is the program Dan John had for his high school program

The Southwood Junior High Weightlifting Program​

Every so often, I will get an email from a high school coach about teaching a
group of kids to lift weights. The emails often sound like the task…to get kids to lift…is
insurmountable. Some of the coaches sound like they need a miracle worker to come in
and exorcize the student body before beginning the exercise program.
I always argue back to these fine men and women that it​

can be done…easily and
inexpensively. I can’t claim any credit from the following program, but I am indebted to
Mr. Dave Freeman, my ninth grade P.E. coach for making us do this program!
After eight years at St. Veronica’s School, I transferred to Southwood Junior High
to begin junior high. It was a helluva transition. From Irish Nuns to public school is
transition enough, but I was also going to play football. At 118 pounds of …ahem…pure
muscle, it was obvious to everyone I needed to lift weights.
It was at this time I was introduced to Southwood’s lifting program. In a portable
building, the school had outlaid about 15 of those cement filled weightlifting sets that
everyone from my generation remembers as their first bar.
Mr. Freeman spent little time explaining the “rep-set” system of 8-6-4 because of
everybody, except me, knew what to do. That is part of the brilliance of the
program…you learned it once and then you lifted. Not exactly rocket science…but who
needs rocket science on the football field?
The program was very simple. First, groups of four boys were given a bar. The
bars were weighted from very light…maybe 25 pounds…up to perhaps close to 100
pounds. Each cohort of boys would lift one at a time, put the bar down, then the next boy
would lift. The four would constantly move from lifter to watcher…the bar never
stopped. The three sets (explained in just a moment) would not take very long…in fact,
sometimes it was hard to catch your breath in time for your next set.
The reps were very simple:
First set: 8 repetitions
Second set: 6 repetitions
Third set: 4 repetitions
The goal was simple: when you got all 18 reps (8+6+4), you added weight. If you
started with a bar that was too light, the next workout, you would be bumped up to the
next weight and a stronger group. (Of course, actual variations could include making a
whole new group with more weight, too…or whatever necessary to make the group work
together).
The program involved four lifts:
1 Power Clean
2 Military Press
3 Front Squat
Each lift was done in the 8-6-4 format. The bar was cleaned (once) for the set of Military​

From the Ground Up 12​

Presses and the bar was also cleaned (once) for the Front Squats. So, each workout the
athlete cleaned the bar from the ground to the chest 22 times. If, as some people believe,
the Power Clean is the "King of the Exercises," that is a lot of reps with the King!
To “hurry up” the training…as if it was necessary, there were times when Mr.
Freeman recommended combining the Power Clean and Military Presses…one clean and
one press, repeated for a total of eight reps. This was done with a lighter weight. One
could also do the Front Squats after the clean and presses, too. I have only done this
once...and it was an amazing cardiovascular workout.
Each day, to warm up, we had to “run two laps and an obstacle course.” The two
laps were about 600 meters and the obstacle course had a wall, various upper body
challenges, and some balance walking. All in all, this was not a bad program.
We trained this program three days a week during the summer before football
season…when we could. Unfortunately, as I was unschooled in proper lifting logic, I
started to focus on the bench press in high school and erred by ignoring the clean, press
and front squat. I was on the right track here, but, as youth often does, I went the wrong
way.​

The "Rapid Ascent" Program
Three Days a Week in the Weightroom:
Power Clean
8-6-4 reps
Military Press
8-6-4 reps
Front Squat
8-6-4 reps​

Increase weight when you get all the reps!​

Other "musts:"
Begin each morning with a good breakfast including protein.
Try to eat five to nine servings of fruit and vegetables a day.
Sleep for more than eight hours a day (Eight hours and one minute is more!)
Wear your seatbelt.
Don't smoke.
Drink water as your major beverage.​

That's it...that's the "Rapid Ascent Program." As I always note when I explain one of my
training programs...it looks so easy on paper! Now, go and do it!​

Summary:​

No, it's not a perfect program, but it ain't bad either! One bar on the floor with
absolutely nothing else in the way of equipment can help you on the path to athletic
success and your goals in body composition. Many people have used this program as a
"fat loss" training program and have found it to be excellent because of the speed of the
workout and the lack of stress on the body's resources. When trying to lose fat, it is a
good idea not to beat the body up as it often causes the system to cling on to fat even
harder than before.​

Simple, not easy.​

​

​

 

[Aaron]

Thanks for the read Markos.

After attemting some heavier deadlifting this afternoon, I just don't think I'm ok to start deadlifting 130-140kg by myself with no coach to guide me.
The centre of my back is a touch sore - perhaps this is normal for a first session on heavier weights???

I did -
3x46.8Kg
3x66.8Kg
3x86.8Kg
3x96.8Kg (feeling heavy now)
3x106.8Kg

-----------------

New program with starting weights/reps - thoughts welcome!

Low Bar Squat 3x10 @ 86.8kg - 5kg increases
Kept the weight on these conservative, at least for the next couple of sessions. Will consider 10kg increases after my first week.

Bench Press 3x8 @ 46.8kg - 2.5kg increases
These were hard at 40.3kg but I've never really had to bust my nut at them. I've stuck to 2.5kg increases, as this is still 7.5kg per week.

Bent Row 3x8 @ 66.8kg - 5kg increases
Last go at these was 40.3kg, but were super easy.

OH Press 3x8 @ 32.8kg - 2.5kg increases
Have already achieved 32.8kg on 5x5, but only after 2 stalls. Will stick to this weight to see how I go on 3x8, as opposed to 5x5

Deadlift 3x8 @ 96.8kg - 5kg increases
Ramped these up a tad - my last workout I did 79.3kg, 4x5 (only meant to do 1x5 on the Stronglifts program, and only deadlift 3 times per fortnight). The 5kg increases, 3 times per week should see them come up to a less 'shamefull' (for lack of better words lol) figure within 6 or 8 weeks.

BB Curl 3x8 @ 26.8kg - 2.5kg increases
Keeping these really low so as to not have too much impact on my arm recovery. I know curls have a bad name, but I'm happy to admit I'd like to lose my girly arms sooner rather than later. Though I must say I can't believe how much DL's have done for my forearms.

Push-Ups 3xF
Once I can reach 8 in my first set, I'll stop, rather than going to failure. The idea is to get to 3x8, as opposed to 15,8,5 (for example). Once 3x8 is reached, I'll add 2.5kg per session in a backpack.

Rev Crunches 3x12 - 1 rep per set increases
Once some higher numbers are achieved, I'll possibly change these to dragon flags or get an ab-wheel.

Prone Bridges 3x36sec - 2sec per set increases
Whilst I initially hated these, I find them a great way to clear my head at the end of a workout. I miss the days that I don't finish with them (as they usually rotate with reverse crunches. Is there any harm in doing both every workout?

I haven't put any chins or pull-ups into the program. I can't do a single rep for either. So, rather than doing negatives mid-workout (whilst my arms are already tired), I'm going to start just fitting them in whenever I can at home, daily. I.e, 3x5neg, twice a day, increasing by 1 rep per set daily.

Feedback on this is greatly appreciated Positive and negative

Regards,

Aaron.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Speaking from experience, 5 compounds in one workout is very heavy work. You need to have a spot-on diet and lots of sleep to manage it. 3 is more realistic. Choose one deep knee-bend, one pull and one push in each workout, that'll be enough in the long-term.

Bin the BB curls and onwards. If you're doing the squats etc correctly you won't get any extra benefit from all that.

If you're really keen on that other stuff, do the compounds 3 days a week, and do that other stuff on the "rest" days. If you're doing that, do some inverted rows, too - once you can do 3x10 of those you ought to be able to squeeze out a chinup or two.

I say, when in doubt lower the weight to start with on a new routine. If it's genuinely easy for you it'll go up quickly. For example, I went from a routine with 1x6 on the top set to 3x5 - much bigger volume of work, so I had to drop the weights. But in a few weeks I was doing 3x5 with what I used to do 1x6 with.

Make sure you include a couple of warmup sets for each of those compounds, and stretch after each workout.

 

[Aaron]

I say, when in doubt lower the weight to start with on a new routine.

Definately right here.

Just started squats (taking a 5 minute breather before I begin again)...

5x46.8kg
5x66.8kg
3x76.8kg <<----- Form was absolutely terrible - too heavy for me atm

Taking 5 mins off, going to deload to 66.8kg and do these in 5x5. Will proceed with rest of workout as described and see how I go.

Cheers,

Aaron.