Strength Training and Cycling/Running (Long distance mountain biking, duathlons etc)

[maxwolfie]

I have just recently started Rippetoe's Practical Programming program. I am pretty excited about taking on something new, however I do have a lingering concern that on this program, my running and cycling will inevitably suffer. According to his program (http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Nutrition,_Supplements_and_Cardio), cardio should be done but KEPT AT LOW INTENSITY. This is the part I am a bit concerned about.

By long distance I am talking 15 kms + of mountain biking every week - moderate/high intensity with breaks (depending on hills). Running at least 10kms every week in one session, maybe twice a week. Then there are the longer events - I have a 10 hr mountain biking enduro race coming up, City 2 Surf (15kms - all running), Gong Ride (90km road ride), a full duathlon series amongst others.

My goals are to add overall muscle mass, particularly upper body and core, preserve/improve endurance for running/cycling in legs as well as increase strength in legs (though I have so far found that lifting weights does nothing for cycling in terms of getting up hills easier, it has the reverse effect in fact.)

What are your views on this?

 

[dave]

You did this whilst in Keto??? Also lifting and endurance are two completely different animals, choose one and stick to that as your goals OR compromise on both and go for a mid point.

 

[maxwolfie]

Yeah, I was on keto for almost two months. My cardio really dropped off towards the end though, the diet sort of killed my motivation a bit. Probably due to lack of energy.

I'm not looking to become a beefcake, nor do I really consider myself "elite" on either the MTB or the road bike.... The events are really just for fun and to give to charity, though no doubt there is a competitive edge required. I don't really want to pick one or the other... I think I'd prefer a midpoint, at least until I'm over bodybuilding/weights, then I will no doubt stick to a cardio routine 3-4 times a week. I don't think I'm "serious enough" with either to REALLY warrant full on dedication with one OR the other. However, I think it would be unhealthy to lift weights without any cardio whatsoever, so I have no intention of doing so. This was one of the primary reasons why I stopped the keto diet (as it was effecting my motivation to do cardio in the first place.)

Ultimately in summary I want to be able to maintain a healthy looking body with a decent amount of LBM (again... I don't want to be El Beefo Man), develop/maintain strong core, arms, chest/back shoulders etc. But maintain strong cardio (endurance running and cycling ability) at the same time. When I say strong, I mean "reasonable" or "above average" - Though I guess above average means SFA in this day and age (i.e. everyone is weak as piss and fat as hippos).

There's got to be a viable midpoint somewhere... What do sports people do when they require good strength and endurance at the same time?

Can I condition my legs through cycling/running/weights to cope with reasonable weights, reasonable running and reasonable cycling in order to remain competitive?

If the answer is no, then I may have to reconsider how important training at the gym really is to me...

 

[haz]

i thinks its great that your looking to add resistance training to your endurance stuff.

will endurance training affect your lifting and putting on mass? yes

will you still benefit a lot from doing resistance training? yes

i would do twice a week on the basics. and i would add some single leg stuff as well. i would also keep the reps at 5 or lower.

this forum probably isn't the best for endurance training advice but resistancing training works for everyone. even if you lift now and get less than optimal results in muscle mass, once (if) you scale back your endurance stuff you will have built a solid strength base to work off and then pack on the muscle.

have a read of this stuff i found interview with gentilcore and another gentilcore interview

 

[dave]

They compromise on both. Sports people also do not train that much weight wise if endurance is also important. It can be done its just a lot harder to do. You could run 10km well and still a stronger than average guy it is just harder to do both.

 

[moons]

If you want to do both go for it, you stated you don't have an elite/professional stake in downhill or running... so you are only limited by your personal goals and if they are dealbreakers. This may mean accepting that lean mass will come at a slower rate for you.

Rips program is aimed at those who want to get strong (and usually big) as fast as possible - thus the cardio recommendation.

As far as incorporating strength training into your schedule I would take a punt at 2 (3 at a stretch) full body days. As always, focus on the compounds and if you want maybe learn the olympic lifts.

As long as you are getting your rest and getting adequate nutrition there is nothing wrong with doing both, it's your life do shit you enjoy!

 

[Oli]

cardio SHOULDNT be done at all during the novice period, search harder.

Anyone who says you can do both to the maximum degree is lying to you - if you want to place triathlon over lifting thats fine, but expect consequences.

 

[maxwolfie]

cardio SHOULDNT be done at all during the novice period, search harder.

Anyone who says you can do both to the maximum degree is lying to you - if you want to place triathlon over lifting thats fine, but expect consequences.

Would it make sense to NOT do Rippetoe's? I mean, after all it's mainly focused on legs. Considering that lifting weights does not improve my cycling, and in fact makes it worse, and also considering that I'm wanting to focus on upper body... without becoming disproportionate.. . Would a more core/upper body orientated program work better for me, intertwined with heavy leg cardio on off days?

 

[dave]

Most people use weights to increase their maximum strength or power. You seem to be interested in strength endurance it seems to fit your goals. Now you can increase your strength endurance through both increasing you max strength (similar to most programs on here) and by doing high rep exercises. By high reps I mean in the 20-25 range. This would be more beneficial to your cycling than a typical strength program like starting strength. You can still put on muscle but have a look at a lot of bodyweight only guys who do high reps, you just can not get really big that's all but I do not think that is your goal anyway. Let me know if this more like what you are interested in.
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[maxwolfie]

I really don't care if I can/can't deadlift or squat 30kg or 300kg.

Ultimately, I want to really tone up my upper body, add a fair bit of LBM all over (my upper body) and become a bit of a fat burning machine. It's more about looking healthy and being healthy for me, rather being able to say that I can lift xxx kilograms. Having said that, I really need to be able to develop/maintain endurance on the bike (so I can keep up with my mates on the weekends and in events), and in my running. My legs seem to have 0% fat anyways, and as long as I don't become disproportionate (which I highly doubt they will - As I'm not looking to become a beefcake anyways).

Can I do a low rep/high weight routine for upper body, and occaisional high rep/low weight routine on lower? Or, preferably, forget the gym for "leg days" and just go riding. Though from my experience, lifting weights (high reps, low weight included) does SFA for cycling. Cycling is best to improve cycling. Trying to work out the best plan as a novice is a REAL pain the ass, considering all the broscience that's out there. I just want some real answers for once.

Here's a log thread from another forum that I just started this morning to track my progress... Though I am not sure if I am going to even proceed with this routine anyways

The Vitals:

Male
24 y/o
Average build - Not overly lean/athletic or chubby
189cm or 6'2"
80.4kg or 177lbs (about a week old - I may be a 1/2lb - 1lb or so heavier now)

A Quick Background:

I have been lifting for twelve months now, seriously for about six.

Initially I started lifting in my TAFE/college gym, with little idea of what I was doing. Technique and form were quite horrible, from what I remember. I was actually doing SS back then too, however I don't think I really "got the point" - I was adding way too many isolation exercises after the lifts, using a smith to bench with, not using a power rack to squat with etc.

I then joined a local gym where I then undertook ~16 months of various 3/4 day splits. Some progress, though again probably too much focus on isolation exercises.

For the past two months, I have been on Lyle McDonald's ketogenic diet. I stopped this recently after seeing little progress in terms of fat loss, a few arising health issues as well as generally being "over it". I think this diet may be best for those who have a decent amount of body fat to lose in the first place. I was reasonably lean even before I started.

I am now looking to go "Back To Basics" (hence the thread title) by really concentrating on the big, compound lifts to develop overall strength.

Diet:

I'm not really focusing on X amount of protein, carbs or fat. I will monitor for a few weeks this once I settle into the program a little more. Basically, if I'm hungry, I'll make sure I eat.

Typically, I'll be munching on meats (beef, chicken, fish mainly), eggs, skim and whole milk, natural peanut butter and celery, wholemeal breads and muffins. Whatever I can find really.

Supplements:

WPI/WPC: At the moment I'm having 4-5 25g protein shakes per day, evenly spaced. TOTAL 100g - 125g.
Creatine: On days - 5g before workout, 5g post. 5g with dinner. TOTAL 15g. Off days - 5g breakfast in shake, 5g in dinner shake. TOTAL 15g on days, 10g off days.
Vitamins: Taking a "one a day" vitamin in the mornings.
Fish Oil - Two or three times a day, with main meals. I will skip it if I'm eating fish for lunch or dinner.

Routine:

Sun/Tues/Thurs - A/B/A or B/A/B
Mon/Wed - Cycle/off (or vice versa)
Sat - Cycle

The above is still to be tested and refined. Basically, I am not sure whether my lifting will benefit or suffer from cycling. I will take it easy to begin with and increase intensity until I find my lifting starts to suffer, then back off a little.

The idea is to go for a low intensity ride on the day following the deadlift/squat workouts ("B" workouts), such that recovery through increased blood flow. Moderate intensity ride after squat only workouts ("A" workouts).

I am an avid mountain biker, hence the road riding during the week to retain leg endurance. Generally, group-based mountain biking will occur on Saturday and Sundays, at moderate/high intensity, for around two hours. Depending on the frequency and grade of hills, mountain biking could be classed as HIIT at times.

For example:

Sunday - A
Monday - Moderate ride
Tuesday - B
Wednesday - Low intensity ride or off
Thursday - A
Friday - Moderate ride
Saturday - Mountain biking or off

The following week:

Sunday - Off (due to previous days mod/high intensity mountain biking)
Monday - B
Tuesday - Low intensity ride or off
Wednesday - A
Thursday - Moderate ride
Friday - B
Saturday - Off or low intensity ride (due to previous days "B" work out)
Sunday - Off or low intensity ride (as above)

Etc..

Current photos:

Goals:

In no particular order...

* Develop overall strength and tone entire upper body.
* Develop and maintain core strength for sports (i.e. mountain biking).
* Develop and maintain cycling ability for distances of up to 30km, at moderate/high intensity, once per week.
* Develop and maintain running ability for distances of up to 15km at moderate/high intensity, once per week.

The Long Term Plan:

* Maintain all of the above - Perhaps cutting lifting to two days a week (but still lifting heavy) to maintain lean body mass (I.e. not develop it), if this is possible.

Foreseeable/Possible Issues:

* The cycling and running - I will have to take slowly and carefully.
* Creatine consumption - Heard many different things here.
* Protein consumption - Without sitting down and writing a book/number crunching about everything I eat and drink.. for now I am sticking to four or five shakes a day.

 

[dave]

Well first of all you are freaken skinny, 189 and 80kgs is not much but irbid good for running and riding as the less mass you have the more efficient you are.

Cycling is best to improve cycling.

That is very much correct, you can do somethings to augment it BUT in the end it's FA unless you are a top pro cyclist an needed that extra minutes speed.

But strength is good for daily living and health and you have stated that to e one of your important points. So with the endurance work you probably should only train with weights 2 days a week. Gains will be slower but you will recover better. Lift full body and heavy it you want to gain strength, it won't carry over much at all (if anything) to long bike rides but it will increase your strength (not as quickly as a 3 or 4 day week) and help you to put on some muscle as long as you are eating enough calories.

Something like Markos' or Fadi's beginner programs would be good for you. If you like some bodyweight work Fadi's would be great for you. Just remember that heavy leg work such as deadlifts and squats will do more for your upper body size gains than just upper body exercises. I haven't gone fully through your copy and pasted post I just wanted to give you a little info for your own knowledge. I would really advocate doing something you like more so you are consistent just remember to keep recovery in the equation.

Also Keto while doing endurance work like you did plus weights was nuts, don't do that again.
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[maxwolfie]

Thanks for those links Haz... I really enjoyed reading the interviews. I just sent an email to Tony:

Hi Tony,

I've read a number of your interviews in regards to strength training for endurance athletes and my current situation seems to be very similar. They have really got me thinking and I'm glad I've got a bit of "fresh air" from you, after all the hot wind from the beefcakes out there. (Not referring to ausbb here Yes, I am referring to that "other", very, very large forum )

Basically, I'm a keen mountain biker by nature but I also want to be able to develop overall strength, particularly my upper body and core area, mainly to look and feel healthy. I don't give a rats about being able to lift xxx kilograms, but I wouldn't mind a bit of extra lean body mass on my chest, back arms shoulders etc. I figured the cycling had my legs covered, but after reading your articles I am not sure. I also enjoy running once or twice a week (up to 15kms) and partaking in the odd Duathlon or Triathlon (though swimming is not really my thing...)

I have recently started Mark Rippetoes Starting Strength plan. The plan is a 3 day full body workout, including big lifts like the squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench press etc. My issue is this - I've heard time and time again (on various forums) that I must choose one or the other. I.e. serious strength training or serious cycling. I am open ears if there's a more suitable program to work from.

I really enjoy going to the gym and seeing improvements and I love my riding but you can see where my frustration is coming from when everyone tells me that they "just don't mix".

Can I not remain competitive in my running and, more importantly, my cycling (road and MTB) whilst still packing on a bit of muscle?



Cheers,

Greg

 

[NPR]

If your goal is only modest improvement in lean body mass and you dont want to get genuinely strong or large then of course you can do both activities. The weights will complement the biking and running side to an extent.

But if you want to get serious about either the weights or the long distance stuff you will need to choose one. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

Too much size will be a disadvantage in your endurance events and too much cardio will hinder your recovery from weight sessions and also burn calories you need to add mass if that is your goal.

IMO if you want to be only decent at both then thats fine you can train both. But if your want to take one to a high level you will need to sacrifice the other to a certain extent.

 

[PTC]

This thread is far too long.

Your no different to 1 billion people who love to ride a bike and lift some weights for recreation, why the pics of you posing.

Your not interested in taking either sport seriously, why the confusion, ride your bike, lift some weights, enjoy life.

Your confusion appears to have confused many more, I dont get what your after.

Do you want to be a better recreational bike rider or do you want to be a stronger health spa member, or are those flexing pics leading to a bodybuilding career?

You like to be an allrounder, just keep doing what your doing big fella

 

[haz]

Thanks for those links Haz... I really enjoyed reading the interviews. I just sent an email to Tony:

He's currently on a vacation so i wouldn't my hold my breath waiting for a reply.
im glad you read and enjoyed the links. i know you said that strength wasn't your goal but building strength will help in so many areas