School Shooting Claims 27 lives

L.P.S. said:

Von, whatever your self interest in this matter the fact remains, guns in the hands of the deranged or those who would use them (guns) for purposes we just recently saw and have continually seen in the U.S. has to be stopped. If you don't agree with that or are just trying to circle jerk then you are not worth the effort of even replying too. Merry Xmas to you and yours.

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Big Mick said:

I think you are missing the point people are trying to make, and yet you mention it in your reply.

Who said we should give guns to deranged people??

We are simply saying there are no good and no bad guns, and that it is an issue with the people and the management of their mental health NOT the guns.

Guns have not made these people deranged, society and other factors have done this. So changing gun laws will do nothing to address the issue at hand that is causing the problem just like putting a band aid on skin cancer will do nothing to cure the cancer.

Not sure why this is so difficult to understand??

Most so called massacres are carried out by people who have either used guns they have illegally obtained or illegally owned, so how will laws change that, as the laws are already there, yet these massacres still happened, so will banning things twice work??

I mean shooting people is already against the law, so now we have an extra law that says well sorry you can't have guns, so now the person that wants to shoot people will say to himself, 'self, well I was going to kill 20 people with my illegal fire arm but since now they have banned guns I won't be doing it, I will head up to the police station and hand my gun in instead' or do you think this person will go on and obtain the guns anyway even though the law says he can not have them??

Changing gun laws will only affect people that follow the law, it's unlikely that drug dealers, robbers, criminals and murderers will now curb their activity hand their guns in at the local police station before heading to Centrelink to look for a job.

We need the REAL ISSUE causing these incidents addressed, not band aid solutions that will do nothing to address the real problem.

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Big Mick said:

That's not where the guns come from, and that is my point, no law abiding gun owner will 'lend' you a gun. Guns are securely stored in an expensive gun safe, which is bolted to the floor as well as the structural part of a wall with a minimum of 4 x 12mm anchor bolts, securing it to floor and wall, with all ammunition stored in a separate locked compartment with a separate key.

All firearms are registered and you must on a yearly basis prove to the Government that you still have a genuine need to own the said gun.

This is in Australia (NSW anyway).

The firearms used in MOST (not all) of these incidents are illegally owned and obtained, They are bought down the pub, or in back alleys sold by criminals, and not that hard to obtain in most capital cities around Australia.

I have LEGALLY owned guns since I was 14 years old, which is 30 years now, I have been a recreational hunter most of my life. I used to own several semiautomatic guns that I had to hand in to police when the laws changed, so I did (I bet no criminals did).

I agree with safe storage and strict rules for gun ownership, I believe there should be mandatory reporting for doctors, where if anyone suffers from depression, mental illness of any kind, has committed violent crime at any time or appears unstable in any way, they should not be able to own firearms, no if's no but's and no may be's. (this will not stop them obtaining them illegally, but it will at least some what address the issue gun control nazis harp on about, and stop legally owned guns from being used in these incidents)

Not every person should be able to own firearms, and I am also a firm believer that not every person should be able to hold a drivers license, it should be much harder to get a drivers license.

So I guess in some way I agree with gun control, but normal, stable, level headed individuals who have completed the required training should be able to own what ever gun they require for their chosen sport or work.

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Look at the chronology of posts. My original post, then your original opposition reply and then finally your agreeance (on gun control being needed).

Its good you finally agree with the point the majority of the rest of the world has been stating for the past few days, even if it took all day and one big circle jerk to come to it.

This is exactly what has been going on in the U.S. Congress has been circle jerking based on guns owners self interests, meanwhile hundreds of innocent people have died due to the ease of gun availability to people who would harm innocents.

Congratulations to Darkoz and Joe for your persistence in arguing on behalf of the best interests of society and innocents who may be slain in future killings. Did Stevematic really post an article from a gun and hunting magazine, an article obviously based on the self interests of gun owners and gun retailers .......... fuck me ........ meanwhile more innocent people will probably die due to the ease of guns getting into the hands of those who would cause harm.

All the calls for gun control are moot. The shooter at virgina tech used 9mm pistol this guy used a semi auto but he was shooting school kids, he could have had a .223 bolt and still killed as many pwople. So what does gun control achieve nothing.

It is a social problem they need to adress in america not a gun problem. Do you people reslise how many 223 & 222 long arms lurk in suburban gun safes in this country, yet strangely we don't have school massacres. Why because our society isn't sick.

Taking law abiding shooters guns just drives the balance of power into criminals hands, I'm sure anyone living in western sydney can attest to that. I live on the gold coast and we have shootongs at least once a month which is funny cause pre buy back a shooting was a rare and newsworthy event

Fucking cocksucker nanny state motherfuckers. One of these days I'll move somewhere more liberal.

Fluffy said:

All the calls for gun control are moot. The shooter at virgina tech used 9mm pistol this guy used a semi auto but he was shooting school kids, he could have had a .223 bolt and still killed as many pwople. So what does gun control achieve nothing.

It is a social problem they need to adress in america not a gun problem. Do you people reslise how many 223 & 222 long arms lurk in suburban gun safes in this country, yet strangely we don't have school massacres. Why because our society isn't sick.

Taking law abiding shooters guns just drives the balance of power into criminals hands, I'm sure anyone living in western sydney can attest to that. I live on the gold coast and we have shootongs at least once a month which is funny cause pre buy back a shooting was a rare and newsworthy event

Fucking cocksucker nanny state motherfuckers. One of these days I'll move somewhere more liberal.

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Isn't that the difference though here they are in gun safes, in the states shoved in a wardrobe or under the bed there is no regulations about storage... Could be wrong though

Fluffy said:

All the calls for gun control are moot. The shooter at virgina tech used 9mm pistol this guy used a semi auto but he was shooting school kids, he could have had a .223 bolt and still killed as many pwople. So what does gun control achieve nothing.

It is a social problem they need to adress in america not a gun problem. Do you people reslise how many 223 & 222 long arms lurk in suburban gun safes in this country, yet strangely we don't have school massacres. Why because our society isn't sick.

Taking law abiding shooters guns just drives the balance of power into criminals hands, I'm sure anyone living in western sydney can attest to that. I live on the gold coast and we have shootongs at least once a month which is funny cause pre buy back a shooting was a rare and newsworthy event

Fucking cocksucker nanny state motherfuckers. One of these days I'll move somewhere more liberal.

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thats B.S. Fluffy. The ease at which a person in a deranged or highly emotional state can obtain a gun and then go out and slay innocent people is a problem. Yes the U.S. is a fucked up place due to the inequality of its society, but the ease of guns getting into the hands of those who are distraught or deranged is a problem.

No point arguing about it, people are never going to agree on this issue. It's just a shame the bleeding hearts are so good at manipulating a tragedy like this to sell their nanny state bullshit. The yanks will never give up their guns anyway, it's as much a part of their culture as baseball.

I'm out of this thread.

Bradders said:

Isn't that the difference though here they are in gun safes, in the states shoved in a wardrobe or under the bed there is no regulations about storage... Could be wrong though

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That's an interesting point. Today we need to secure our firearms, which says something about society.

When I was growing up in the 1970's and 80's almost nobody had their firearms in secure storage, urban or rural. I could walk into my parents bedroom and obtain a semiautomatic rifle and the ammo without any dramas at all. But I didn't. Other houses had similar arrangements. There were shotguns under beds, 303's in sheds and browning self loading rifles in wardrobes. Yet there weren't the depraved shooting sprees.

I spent a bit of my childhood in the bush on the edge of a country town. I rode around on dirt bikes and sometimes I was allowed to sling the trusty ruger 10/22 over my shoulder and go bunny busting. The cops met me on a dirt road one day and stopped me, aged 10. They didn't think what I was doing was a good idea - I might stack the bike and damage the rifle.

What's changed? Firearms are still inanimate objects. There were loads of the so-called "semi automatic terror weapons" as the anti gun lobby call them but no one saw them as menacing, in fact hardly anyone cared at all.

Now I have to store an air rifle as though it were an Exocet missile launcher because no one can be trusted, and rather than being seen as nothing more than an inanimate object with a given function, some people now consider them as weapons.

What compels youth to take up a gun and do unspeakable things? Is the incidence of cognitive disability, mental illness and behavioral disorder that much greater these days? I can't imagine so.

I blame the parents.

vonfram88 said:

That's an interesting point. Today we need to secure our firearms, which says something about society.

When I was growing up in the 1970's and 80's almost nobody had their firearms in secure storage, urban or rural. I could walk into my parents bedroom and obtain a semiautomatic rifle and the ammo without any dramas at all. But I didn't. Other houses had similar arrangements. There were shotguns under beds, 303's in sheds and browning self loading rifles in wardrobes. Yet there weren't the depraved shooting sprees.

I spent a bit of my childhood in the bush on the edge of a country town. I rode around on dirt bikes and sometimes I was allowed to sling the trusty ruger 10/22 over my shoulder and go bunny busting. The cops met me on a dirt road one day and stopped me, aged 10. They didn't think what I was doing was a good idea - I might stack the bike and damage the rifle.

What's changed? Firearms are still inanimate objects. There were loads of the so-called "semi automatic terror weapons" as the anti gun lobby call them but no one saw them as menacing, in fact hardly anyone cared at all.

Now I have to store an air rifle as though it were an Exocet missile launcher because no one can be trusted, and rather than being seen as nothing more than an inanimate object with a given function, some people now consider them as weapons.

What compels youth to take up a gun and do unspeakable things? Is the incidence of cognitive disability, mental illness and behavioral disorder that much greater these days? I can't imagine so.

I blame the parents.

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This pretty much sums it up, how many people still remember firearms and ammunition sold in K Mart and Big W along side the fishing rods?? Was not that long ago, how many people remember farmers having guns in the tray of their ute while parked outside the shops or the pub, with the keys still in the ignition of said ute??

I am happy to say where I live at the moment NO ONE locks their house or their car, car keys are 'stored' in the ignition of the car no one worries about their kids playing outside, and almost every person owns at least 1 high powered firearm.

And this comes back to my original argument, it is not the guns that are the problem it is the people and society as a whole in most cities. Where I live at the moment none of this has gotten here yet, my neighbour takes my kids fishing, another neighbour takes my 7 year old son pig hunting. And I have no concern, every neighbour has my number, they all watch the kids and I watch their kids.

Any of them step out of line they are put back into place by who ever is there, and everyone is happy with that deal, just like the old days.

How do the anti gun nazis explain that here, where there are more guns than people, there is virtually no crime, no drugs, no break ins, no robberies, no cars getting stolen, no kids getting molested, no people getting shot?? If guns were the problem these issues should be out of control here with all these guns in peoples hands, yet we have zero crime........anti gun campaigners please explain this.

There is no correlation between tight gun laws firearms related crime, never has been, and probably never will be. For example Japan has the tightest gun laws in the world yet they have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. In Switzerland there is very low gun related crime, yet almost every household has a High Powered Fully Automatic Military Weapon in it. Switzerland thus has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world, yet one of the lowest crime rates in the world......can anyone please explain how this is possible with all these high powered automatic military rifles freely available to almost every citizen????

Before replying please read the last two paragraphs again and understand it.

EDIT:
Not pointing a finger, but it appears that a LOT of these issues have come up since Australia has become a multicultural society, when guns were sold at Big W we were not multicultural, it seems there are no multicultural people living within 100km of where I live and there seems to be none of these problems here, travel 120km up the road to a larger town occupied with politically correct multicultural society people, and all of a sudden we have stealing, break ins, drugs, robberies etc etc Travel back into the bush to my small town of 120 people surrounded by farms, with no multicultural society and all the problems suddenly disappear.......probably just coincidence???? Or am I onto something??

lol, I agree, multiculturalism is a bad bad idea. I have very little faith in people... unless it comes for their low tolerance for one another, and readiness to judge based on how they look/speak/their culture. Let me admit straight up it takes one to know one

The main difference in people's viewpoint on this issue is just societal issue vs not a societal issue. Fluffy believes it's a 100% sick society creating these people issue, so do others... I'm not so sure... I believe it's a mix of society and born psychopaths emerging in a population of 300 million (and committing copy cat crimes). I do believe their access to effective weapons is too easy. Apparently this is enough to label me a communist/moron/lefty etc.

You asked me to read your post Mick so I did - I agree societal issues are the chief cause of general violent crime, etc. but just go back to my last post stating why I believe such statistics are not relevant in these cases. Imagine if we took away centrelink in this country but tightened up gun laws to a ridiculous extent. Crime rates would go crazy pretty quickly, I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Crimes of the school shooter kind are statistical outliers - stopping one or two port arthurs isn't going to ever go noticed or be statistically measurable.

As for countries where there are loads of rifles but no similar mass shootings, I would just give it time..... At the moment in Japan fuck ups lock themselves in their rooms for years, it's pretty funny Hikikomori - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't think you're a moron for your belief that the access to effective weapon is too easy, I actually don't understand how the gun show loophole is in place. I believe that needs to be fixed as soon as possible.

There was the Cumbria massacre in the UK a couple of years back where a guy who had been a registered gun owner for 35+ years just went nuts. I haven't read up on that though so I don't know what the findings were.

Big Mick said:

EDIT:
Not pointing a finger, but it appears that a LOT of these issues have come up since Australia has become a multicultural society, when guns were sold at Big W we were not multicultural, it seems there are no multicultural people living within 100km of where I live and there seems to be none of these problems here, travel 120km up the road to a larger town occupied with politically correct multicultural society people, and all of a sudden we have stealing, break ins, drugs, robberies etc etc Travel back into the bush to my small town of 120 people surrounded by farms, with no multicultural society and all the problems suddenly disappear.......probably just coincidence???? Or am I onto something??

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We have been a multicultural society for longer than most people realise. In a way we were once a more egalitarian and integrated society before the advent of nit picking, introverted societal analysis. (with the noteable exception of the indigenous population issues that are typical of a newly-colonised/invaded land)

It seems we need to analyze everything to death these days and I feel there has been too much emphasis on highlighting the differences between people of various cultural backgrounds rather than the shared values. The core principles of the three main Abrahamic faiths are something that if followed, would allow us to leave our doors unlocked at night, and our children to walk unaccompanied through parks.

Instead we preoccupy ourselves with the headgear worn by some women, the unfortunate utterances of a minority group of hard liners and the abhorrent sexual misconduct of a small number of clerics.

The machine seems to broken, and, unfortunately, no one seems to be able to find the right set of spanners.

vonfram88 said:

We have been a multicultural society for longer than most people realise. In a way we were once a more egalitarian and integrated society before the advent of nit picking, introverted societal analysis. (with the noteable exception of the indigenous population issues that are typical of a newly-colonised/invaded land)

It seems we need to analyze everything to death these days and I feel there has been too much emphasis on highlighting the differences between people of various cultural backgrounds rather than the shared values. The core principles of the three main Abrahamic faiths are something that if followed, would allow us to leave our doors unlocked at night, and our children to walk unaccompanied through parks.

Instead we preoccupy ourselves with the headgear worn by some women, the unfortunate utterances of a minority group of hard liners and the abhorrent sexual misconduct of a small number of clerics.

The machine seems to broken, and, unfortunately, no one seems to be able to find the right set of spanners.

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I like the cut of your jib.

Von for PM

I suppose my views are tempered by what I do. I have had the privilege of leading different cultural groups to interact for a common purpose. Sometimes it gets really interesting. I haven't been stabbed or shot at for a long time.

out of it.

Big Mick said:

There is no correlation between tight gun laws firearms related crime, never has been, and probably never will be.

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^^^^Fucking Bullshit N.R.A. Propoganda^^^^

Cho was not allowed to purchase guns under federal law.

Columbine kids used a firearm that was on the AWB, please tell me how that happened since they were illegal? They also used homemade explosives which doesn't make sense because that's also illegal.

What you're dribbling is left wing greenie propaganda. Please post actual statistics and studies rather than resorting to pictures which only ruin whatever shred of credibility you actually had.

Ivan Milat and the Strathfield Massacre Gun man were both licensed Gun Holders.

I am not going to waste my time and energy arguing with people whose self interests they are putting before the interests of those who have been harmed and will continue to be harmed.

Anyone can win an argument, even when gravely wrong. Statistics and studies are handpicked and distorted to suit individual party self interest. Saw a study Coca Cola put out recently, Coke is good for children. Not going to waste my time and energy!

L.P.S. said:

I am not going to waste my time and energy arguing with people whose self interests they are putting before the interests of those who have been harmed and will continue to be harmed.

Anyone can win an argument, even when gravely wrong. Statistics and studies are handpicked and distorted to suit individual party self interest. Saw a study Coca Cola put out recently, Coke is good for children. Not going to waste my time and energy!

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Of course you're not going to waste your time because you haven't presented one reasonable argument yet, you're basing it off emotion and lack of education.

stevematic said:

Of course you're not going to waste your time because you haven't presented one reasonable argument yet, you're basing it off emotion and lack of education.

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Yep pretty much sums up the mantra of anyone anti shooter.

Guns are bad lets ban them without looking at the bigger picture.

Its idiocy, if you try and talk facts you get accused of been a gun nut and made out as if your helping these guys load mags so they can shoot up another kindergarten

Never again in my life will I vote liberal, solely based on what John Howard did when he took our semi auto rifles. Fucking only one step away from becoming a totalitarian state, didn't even give us the courtesy of a refferendum.

kaz said:

Ivan Milat and the Strathfield Massacre Gun man were both licensed Gun Holders.

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Can't speak about the Strathfield Massacre but are you aware of how Milat killed his victims? Most of them weren't even killed with a gun. I doubt an outright ban of every firearm would have stopped what he did, the man was a monster.