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Progressive Loading - Barely finishing a set

Aaron

New member
Sorry for the barage of newbie questions... but that's what I am!

Example:
Military Press
1x8 - 7 easy reps, last rep hard
1x8 - 6 easy reps, last 2 reps extremely slow
1x8 - 5 easy reps, last 3 reps extremely slow, barely made final rep

Would you increase the weight in your next session? Or would you revisit with current weight and try and work on speed/explosiveness?

Cheers,

Aaron.
 
You made the reps, doesn't matter if it's slow. So increase the weight next session.

Remember this is progressive weight training. In each session, do more, more or more - more weight, or more reps, or more sets. That's progression.

Let's say you were aiming for 10,10,10
and managed 8,7,5

Try again next time. You could make 9,9,6, or 8,8,6, etc - all these are more reps than you did before. Great! Keep going.

Say you only did 8,7,5 again - so, add another set, even if you only get 3 reps. You did more sets.

Eventually you'll manage 10,10,10, and then next time you do more weight.

In every workout, more, more or more. Progress.
 
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Thanks mate,

I did make 3x8, but the last reps in set 2 and set 3 were very slow, with the last rep on set 3 barely making it (got to lockout, after about 3 seconds of continued pushing)

Cheers,

Aaron.
 
Example:
Military Press
1x8 - 7 easy reps, last rep hard
1x8 - 6 easy reps, last 2 reps extremely slow
1x8 - 5 easy reps, last 3 reps extremely slow, barely made final rep

Would you increase the weight in your next session? Or would you revisit with current weight and try and work on speed/explosiveness?

Cheers,

Aaron.

i would keep that weight for one more session, no one likes missed reps and that what would happen if you uped the weight b4 your muscles have adapted.
chad waterbury stops his sets once the reps starts to slow. something to think about.

dont be in such a hurry to add more, more more. once you got all 3x8 good solid reps then add.
 
Increase the weight by 2.5kg total next session.

You've cleared 3x8. Dont worry about how hard it was, its meant to be hard.

If you simply repeat the same workout next session, you've gone backwards.

Progressive resistance.

Shrek makes a good point I havent touched on. Another way to increase the EFFORT is to do the same workload in a shorter time period.
 
I did make 3x8, but the last reps in set 2 and set 3 were very slow, with the last rep on set 3 barely making it (got to lockout, after about 3 seconds of continued pushing)
Ah, sorry, my mistake - I meant to use "7,6,5" as an example of having failed on the reps - just happened to be the same number you said were easy. I'll edit my post for clarity.

I meant to say what Markos said, if you made the reps, keep going. Doesn't matter if they were slow. You're trying to develop strength.

"Look, Aaron just deadlifted 250kg!"
"Yeah man but it was slow, so it doesn't count."
"????????"

Of course it's slow, you're lifting at the limits of your strength!

If the weight goes all the way up, it's a rep, count it. If it doesn't go up, refer to what I said - more, more or more. Progress!
 
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"Look, Aaron just deadlifted 250kg!"
"Yeah man but it was slow, so it doesn't count."
"????????"

Of course it's slow, you're lifting at the limits of your strength!

If the weight goes all the way up, it's a rep, count it. If it doesn't go up, refer to what I said - more, more or more. Progress!

you cant compare a 1rm to a set of 8. different things are going on. when you start to slow on a set of 8 it is when your larger motor units have fatigued and now your only relying on the smaller units.
 
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Can you describe what large and small motor units look like please? Where are they located?

If you mean muscles, then you have it ass about.

Smaller muscles fatigue quicker.

With the workout you are doing, you are relying on the major muscle groups being the prime movers.

If you lack confidence lifting weights, take up cake decorations. Attack every set with vigour.

Be a warrior, not a worrier.
 
you cant compare a 1rm to a set of 8.
I'm not.

When you lift x times, and cannot lift another time in that set, you are lifting "at the limits of your strength". The final rep or reps will often though not always be slower than the first ones.

That's common sense, and has nothing to do with whether it's 1 rep or 20.

haz said:
when you start to slow on a set of 8 it is when your larger motor units have fatigued and now your only relying on the smaller units.
I think perhaps you may need to research this issue some more and get back to us with details.
 
no lack of confidence in lifting weights.
austy showed lack of confidence in increase he's weight, which is should feel, as he did not complete he's set as easily as he would have liked. gaining confidence will stop the worrying. him getting 8, 6,5 on he's next session will make him worry more. hitting all 3x8 with good speed will improve his confidence. he will still progress.

the truth is that it doesn't really matter what he does. he will still progress.

im just providing a different idea.
 
You don't gain confidence by doing the same thing you did yesterday, that's comfort and contentment, not confidence.

You gain confidence by doing more difficult things.

In any case, he is asking about progressive loading. How do you progressively load? By doing more each time. No mention there of "oh but unless it's a bit slow or too sweaty or perhaps causes you some slight discomfort."

No go research about these large and small motor units, I am interested to hear more about them.
 
No go research about these large and small motor units, I am interested to hear more about them.

its well documented that more large motor units are recruited when lifts are heavy or lifted quickly.
its in many books ive read. chad waterbury feelings on lifting things quickly is that why bother faituging the smaller motor units when you should be targeting the large MU's which have a greater potential for growth and strength. there's obliviously more to it. i got this from "huge in a hurry" good book.

in the science and practice of strength training it talks about the force made by the muscles deciding what MU's are recruited. the greater the force the larger the unit recruited. these large motor units fatigue quckly, leaving the more aerobic/anaerobic MU to do the rest of the lifting.
pretty standard stuff.

i still think he will gain some benefit from doing the same weight he did last session. he will complete the reps quicker, isn't that something different? and he will gain confidence.

how a rep is performed is also a variable that can be varied to create progressively overload.
again this is just another point of view.
 
Haz, you have a fair bit to learn, but good on you for reading and expanding your knowledge.

Now, ask Austy how long he took to perform those reps and how they were measured.

Then explain to him how long it should take and how he should measure. Also explain that the stroke varies on each exercise so he should have a different set of numbers for each lift. Explain that his rest period should remain consistent because any variation will alter his speed and therefore all measurements will be redundant.

Does he then start again?

How about everybody just lift something heavy, often, then lift something heavier or more often the next day.

Let Chad worry about his own sessions.

Maybe, just maybe, he should simply bust his phoopher and try and do one of the 3 more's.
 
that wasn't for austy. that was for kyle. both ways will work, everything works. i'll just be repeating myself if i continue.

im not against progressive overload. but benefit can be gained from doing the same workout again. if he had .5kg plates i would be all for uping the weight.

it will be interesting to see how he goes on this lift next session.

tho truth be told i read a study that said that in beginners there was no difference in strength gained from people doing 4reps and 10 rep training programs. so thats an argument for uping the weight next session and sacrificing a few reps.

what would i do without you and kyle? lol.
 
its well documented that more large motor units are recruited when lifts are heavy or lifted quickly.
A "motor unit" in the body is a particular muscle fibre combined with the nerve which ennervates it (makes it go). Motor units don't vary in size.

I think what you read more likely said "large amounts of motor units must fire to lift heavy weights" or something like that. In other words, if you do compound exercises and bust your foofer, you hit your body harder than if you do isolation exercises and take it easy.

I find that things are easier when we use everyday words like "muscle" and "bust your foofer." When we get fancy we fck it up, I know I certainly do.

haz said:
i still think he will gain some benefit from doing the same weight he did last session. he will complete the reps quicker, isn't that something different? and he will gain confidence.
In my experience, no. This is because as Markos notes, how does the guy time his reps? Should he get one of those metronome thingies they put on pianos?

Rep tempo is something which appears in many textbooks as a variable in training. In practice, trainees don't time themselves because they're too busy getting the weight up. So varying tempo is something which works with a trainer there, "up, two, three, four, pause, down, two, three, four, up..."

Try to do that on your own you'll get nowhere.

This sort of overly-complex thing doesn't build people's confidence, because it just confuses them. "Yesterday I lifted 75kg, today I lifted 77.5kg" or "yesterday I did 6 reps with 10kg, today I did 7 reps with 10kg," this builds people's confidence because it's a simple and obvious sign of progress. "Yesterday I did 8 reps but 2 of them were slowish, today I think the last 2 were a bit faster..." is just too vague.
haz said:
tho truth be told i read a study that said that in beginners there was no difference in strength gained from people doing 4reps and 10 rep training programs.
... in the first 4 to 8 weeks, for formerly sedentary people. For the first 4-8 weeks, whether a person does 5 reps, 12, single sets or triples, splits or full-body - if they were doing nothing before and are doing something now, their body will adapt.

If they were formerly active in some other sport it's not such a shock to their body and the kind of routine they do matters - they're not complete beginners. If it's past the first 4-8 weeks, then their body has got over the shock of actually doing anything at all, and the kind of routine they do matters.

What's most important in the first 4-8 weeks is getting into the habit of exercise. Habits are most easily formed when there's a routine to them. This is the reason that so many different routines, people try them and they work - they have a piece of paper to follow, on Monday they know what they'll be doing in the gym on Friday, so many reps with so much weight.

So though it may make no difference to them in the first 4-8 weeks whether they do 5 reps or 12, single sets or triples, supersets or whatever, because it makes a difference afterwards it's best to get them into a rhythm of doing a particular routine. Telling them, "whatever you do you'll grow, so don't worry about it," encourages them to chop and change their workout according to whim - which leads to not creating the habit of exercise, and they drop out like too many others.

So we just tell beginners a target rep range, give them 3-6 exercises to do, and tell them, "more, more and more, go bust your arse." Keep it simple, no fancy words or obscure science or But Chad Says, simple. Then they get into the habit - the best workout is the one you stick to.
 
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A "motor unit" in the body is a particular muscle fibre combined with the nerve which ennervates it (makes it go). Motor units don't vary in size.

I think what you read more likely said "large amounts of motor units must fire to lift heavy weights" or something like that. In other words, if you do compound exercises and bust your foofer, you hit your body harder than if you do isolation exercises and take it easy.

I find that things are easier when we use everyday words like "muscle" and "bust your foofer." When we get fancy we fck it up, I know I certainly do.

okay, a motor unit consists of muscle fibers. large MU consist of alot of fibers. knowledge is key, i hope your not limiting yourself the 'Bust your foofer weekly'

In my experience, no. This is because as Markos notes, how does the guy time his reps? Should he get one of those metronome thingies they put on pianos?

Rep tempo is something which appears in many textbooks as a variable in training. In practice, trainees don't time themselves because they're too busy getting the weight up. So varying tempo is something which works with a trainer there, "up, two, three, four, pause, down, two, three, four, up..."

Try to do that on your own you'll get nowhere.

This sort of overly-complex thing doesn't build people's confidence, because it just confuses them. "Yesterday I lifted 75kg, today I lifted 77.5kg" or "yesterday I did 6 reps with 10kg, today I did 7 reps with 10kg," this builds people's confidence because it's a simple and obvious sign of progress. "Yesterday I did 8 reps but 2 of them were slowish, today I think the last 2 were a bit faster..." is just too vague.

i never said tempo training was what he should do.

... in the first 4 to 8 weeks, for formerly sedentary people. For the first 4-8 weeks, whether a person does 5 reps, 12, single sets or triples, splits or full-body - if they were doing nothing before and are doing something now, their body will adapt.

If they were formerly active in some other sport it's not such a shock to their body and the kind of routine they do matters - they're not complete beginners. If it's past the first 4-8 weeks, then their body has got over the shock of actually doing anything at all, and the kind of routine they do matters.

What's most important in the first 4-8 weeks is getting into the habit of exercise. Habits are most easily formed when there's a routine to them. This is the reason that so many different routines, people try them and they work - they have a piece of paper to follow, on Monday they know what they'll be doing in the gym on Friday, so many reps with so much weight.

So though it may make no difference to them in the first 4-8 weeks whether they do 5 reps or 12, single sets or triples, supersets or whatever, because it makes a difference afterwards it's best to get them into a rhythm of doing a particular routine. Telling them, "whatever you do you'll grow, so don't worry about it," encourages them to chop and change their workout according to whim - which leads to not creating the habit of exercise, and they drop out like too many others.

So we just tell beginners a target rep range, give them 3-6 exercises to do, and tell them, "more, more and more, go bust your arse." Keep it simple, no fancy words or obscure science or But Chad Says, simple. Then they get into the habit - the best workout is the one you stick to.

overkill. thanks for all that irrelevant information. and u asked for the fancy information.
 
Wow - some people are pretty sensitive to this topic I see!

Thanks to all who contributed.

What I've taken from this -

1. Bust your arse to get the reps, keep form tidy
2. Once the reps are achieved, increase the weight
3. Don't be afraid of not getting the reps next time, just stick to the Three Mores
4. Be a warrior, not a worrier (this is great)

Cheers,

Aaron.
 
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