Maximising Minimalism

if you just want size and strength im not sure why your so concerned about physiques and bodybuilding then....

anyway im not gonna turn this thread into another shitfight, going around in circles. im out.

I'm scratching my head pretty hard, but cannot really see the distinction between "I want size and strength" and "I want to build my body." Except that the first guy may not care if he is at the same time a fat bastard

Lots of us seem to be quite keen on splitting us all into smaller and smaller groups, but I'm not convinced that it's useful.

To get stronger, eat well, lift heavy, sleep.
To get bigger, eat well, lift heavy, sleep.
To change the shape of your body for the better, eat well, lift heavy, sleep.

Obviously there's more to it than that, but we are more similar than we are different. It just seems like people define an "us" so they can say the "them" are a bunch of idiots and beneath "us". It's a bit of a wank, really.

hyjak said:

if you just want size and strength im not sure why your so concerned about physiques and bodybuilding then....

anyway im not gonna turn this thread into another shitfight, going around in circles. im out.

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At the moment I want size, later I will cut. Strength is something that should come naturally with training. I agree with a lot with what he says just not rushing 6 big excercises in 45 minutes.

With BB it's all about the shape of the muscles, balance, posing, etc. If you aren't as symmetrical as possible, know how to make each muscle pop individually and cycle your diet so that you have almost no body fat for comp, you don't have a hope if you are competing.

But when it comes to normal people, think it sites between the two. Gains in strength are what keep you going, because that is where you can get beat your goals regularly and gets the exercise endorphins pumping. Wanting the 'perfect physique' is often the long term goal and why people start training, but hard to keep focus on because it takes longer.

Kyle Aaron said:

I don't think his style is "boot camp" at all. That stuff is bollocks.

I agree, it was nice having someone around knowledgeable and motivated. I already said that. Did you think I was being sarcastic? I wasn't.

I only say that he is not the only knowledgeable and motivated person on this forum. Which I think he disagrees with

I think his methods are good, it's not that it's not my style of training - I just couldn't do it. I absolutely agree with focusing on the big lifts to build strength. However, that is not entirely compatible with a lumbar scoliosis. But as you know from my workout journal, I'm trying anyway - slowly but surely I'll get there (I hope).

I didn't attack his contributions, so I don't have to defend my own contributions. In any case, a person's contributions have to stand on their own. Saying, "I gave so-and-so to the forum" is as useful as saying "I am honest" or "I am loyal."

If I contributed anything worthwhile, I don't have to tell anyone, they'll know already. If I didn't, then I still don't have to say anything.

The only thing I'd criticise about Markos is the way he presents himself on forums. It gets tiresome being told you're an idiot all the time, and for a guy who likes to take the piss out of others pretty thoroughly he's pretty bad at copping it himself. Again, that's only how he presents himself online. That's often different to how someone is in person.

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Do you want me to pin up all your posts which contradict pretty much all the BS your've just said?
Im sure if I did that you would have excuses and reasons for all of them.

1, Sarcasim does not come across online as it does in real life, you could turn around and say all your verbal diarea was simply sarcasims.
Dont forget you got all dirty becos you thort we were attacking you, how do you think PTC was handling it. I think hes gone cos he either got busy, or just got sick of arguing with someone who has no idea and no experiance.

2, How about getting experianced before counselling newb's
Tell us about your journey, thats fine. no probs wif that. People who want to know that there not alone in there struggles will read your stuff. and yous can help each other.

3, Its not very often this forum gets an experianced lifter or builder online so it's nice not to scare em off so we can milk em for as much info as poss.
PTC and others from the past have provided me with loads of usable and useful info on my choosen passion. No they havent all been soft, but I took from them wot was good and ignored the attitudes.
Guys like PTC and other hard core builders are all full of attitude. years of pain and sweat have carved em out that way.
So wen they despense with advice its straight to the point and unforgiving. or they simply dont bother becos they know what BS there gonna run up against.

However I dont agree with him printing up Howsits Dairy as a example in his news letter. but that something between those two.
PS. Howsit I think your doing well, just take from PTC wot was of use too you, I too hit a similar routine as you, except I think yours is actually better system. Go Hard!!!!

Kyle, I think you have the makings of a good Body Builder and PT, but I just think you need to do a bit more listening and reading.
I get that you are probably cutting your PT teeth on this forum with your comunnications with others, and most of wot you say is valid.
But Im just asking you to take advice, use it, then despense your opinions.
All I have seen from you is excuses and arguments.
I havent seen you ask questions or engage in a forum in an "wanting to know fashion".

This is where Im gonna leave you alone. Im sure you may have a few snide comments to add after this post or lengthy excuse filled explanations. so I'll leave you to it.
Dont expect me to bite, cos Im gonna just ignore it and get on with my love of this sport.

breebreerocks said:

With BB it's all about the shape of the muscles, balance, posing, etc. If you aren't as symmetrical as possible, know how to make each muscle pop individually and cycle your diet so that you have almost no body fat for comp, you don't have a hope if you are competing.

But when it comes to normal people, think it sites between the two. Gains in strength are what keep you going, because that is where you can get beat your goals regularly and gets the exercise endorphins pumping. Wanting the 'perfect physique' is often the long term goal and why people start training, but hard to keep focus on because it takes longer.

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To me a perfect physique is not no bodyfat.

Also, poopoohead, it wasn't my diary, it was just a generalisation of how he saw me working out.

Markos obviosly believes in what he does - and rightly so but he came across as a bit one eyed and sometimes even a bit dogmatic about it.
He seems to have spat it because a few people dared to have a different opinion to him and if that is the case,well, that sort of person isn`t needed.
If I`m wrong I hope he comes back and posts.I like reading all about different methods and opinions.

Kyle Aaron said:

I think we hurt Markos' feelings.

A pity, I like having him around, even if he does think we're all lazy fat stupid underachievers

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I just read that and it tipped my opinion of him a little further away.
He sounds like he is saying he is always right and if you disagree with him you are wrong.
I don`t need to put up pics to prove anything.I am happy with my results and the way I train suits me and works for me.He will have to take my word for it.
And besides,who is he to tell someone they are wrong?The burden of proof is not only on the other person.

What it comes down to is the nature of public forums. Anyone can talk. That's both the best and the worst thing about public forums.

It's the best because you can get lots of different ideas, stuff you never thought of or heard before, and learn.

It's the worst because someone who is new to the topic won't be able to tell the good stuff from the bollocks, and stupid people can annoy us with their blather.

If you consider that you have nothing to learn from anyone, the first thing won't seem important, and you'll focus on the second. If you think you have a lot to learn, the second thing will seem a necessary evil and you'll focus on the first.

I agree with Howzit, my main goals are too look big, like a BB. I do not want to look like an olympic weightlifter therefore i do not train like one, strength is secondary to me, I lift as heavy as I can, and have been going up in weights but I base my workouts around what makes me look bigger, I still do all the exercises that have been discussed (squats,chin ups etc..) but I also do alot of the ones that isolate muscles as I think they give me good results towards getting bigger. No doubt PTC is very knowledgeble on this subject but he also comes across as very arrogant, making people feel stupid for doing bicep curls and exercises like that. These exercises obviously give results otherwise people would not continue doing them. Each person has their own goals and whethor correctly or incorrectly they are training towards them, ridiculing people for not traing they way you say they should is ridiculous even if you are correct. And besides I think most people go to the gym to feel better about themselves, and would say for most that comes from looking good, not being able to squat a car. I'd much rather have a body like Vin Diesal and still be weak as piss then look like a powerlifter and be able to squat the moon. But thats me, my goal is to get a physique, not to get strong.

betcats said:

These exercises obviously give results otherwise people would not continue doing them.

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Yes, but the results are not necessarily muscle growth or strength improvement. For example, perhaps I just get a pump and feel good when I look in the mirror during the gym session, and impress a passing cardio bunny or envious Chest & Bicep Guy.

That's a "result", but it's not the sort of thing most trainers would be needed for.

Loading up the bar to chuck on my back or heave up to my guts is far less glamorous. It gets results, but does not thrill cardio bunnies or Chest & Bicep Guys.

betcats said:

Each person has their own goals and whethor correctly or incorrectly they are training towards them, ridiculing people for not traing they way you say they should is ridiculous even if you are correct.

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That's very true. I do think it's fair to say, "if X is your goal, Y should be the way you train, the Z you're doing at the moment won't achieve it." But there are good and bad ways to deliver that message.

betcats said:

And besides I think most people go to the gym to feel better about themselves, and would say for most that comes from looking good, not being able to squat a car. I'd much rather have a body like Vin Diesal and still be weak as piss then look like a powerlifter and be able to squat the moon. But thats me, my goal is to get a physique, not to get strong.

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Again someone is imagining that strength and size are unrelated. They're not. Obviously they're not perfectly connected - the biggest guy is not the strongest guy, the smallest not the weakest, the strongest not the biggest, and so on. But like the size and fuel consumption of your car, there's a rough connection.

In general, someone who can squat twice their bodyweight for reps is almost always going to have bigger muscles than someone who cannot squat even their bodyweight for reps. That's just the way it is.

How much bodyfat they have, whether their legs match their back and chest and arms and so on, these are different issues. Size and strength are roughly correlated, however. You want to get big? Lift big.

This is an unpleasant reality I face every time I'm in the cage. I don't come close to vomiting and go through back cramps and stretches between every set just so I can write down a bigger number and get a virtual pat on the back from some random internet guy. I want results. And I get them - slowly but surely, I hope.

I know that strength and size are related i was trying to make a point (perhaps a bad one in hindsight), I know to get bigger i need to get stronger and lift bigger, and i have been. What i am saying is ,my main goal is to get ripped, and if i can get ripped arms by doing curls, im gonna do them, and if I can get ripped tris by doing an excercise that isolates them I will. I do these exercises as well as the main lifts,and have seen reults both in size and strength. But PTC coming on here telling people 'train this way otherwise your stupid' is ridiculous. I will train how I like and if I become unhappy with my results i will change the I train.

If I was training simply to get stronger and lift heavier i would workout the way PTC says to but as i said my main goal is to get ripped so i workout a bit differently but as i have also said I still do squats,bench,chinups etc as part of my workouts.

I also read his news letter.
Honestly if I had been lifting for 30 years and then read my diary I too would tell me to sharpen up and do it right otherwise Im just shit kicking and waisting time.
I dont know I guess I need to broarden my veiw to different people.
I surpose I shod see this forum like a gym, Some are here to get down to business, some are here to socialise, some want to do both or neither.

When I look back to how I first started trainning I honestly cant beleive all the dumb crap I used to do repeatly, thinking I was getting results. I wish I could go back in time and show myself the few extra things I know now, so I wouldnt have waisted so much time.
Yes I'll admit some of wot he said made him look a bit of a dick salesmen and yes it was annoying.
However I have in this past week put into practice a small few of his princaples and I have to admit Im quiet impressed with the way Im feeling.
Ive got DOMS in my back and chest, something I havent had since I first started lifting.
However I think I just need to learn to be a bit more tollorant of those who are here to do things different to me and my kind.

I eat big, I lift big, I go hard and I dont give crap advice online. If I give anyone advice on this forum its entirly based on practical fact pertainning to that body part or problem, becos I have done it and it either works, kind of works or doesnt work at all. everyones different and we can all only learn by doing.

Supersetting is another great thing that Markos doesn't talk about. Today I did squats, around 8 sets at above bodyweight. When I couldn't do anymore, I jumped on the leg press and supersetted that with leg extensions, with my toes pointing inwards, then outwards to hit different parts of the quads, I did this for 4 sets. I could barely put my legs up without any weight on the leg extension machine at teh end of it.

First off, I've been really busy, my latest newsletter is 13 pages long. Looks like somebody wants to make a book out of them, sorry I havent been on here.

Bree, you are exactly the kind of client I like, fiesty and strong, how could you ever think I could hate someone that displays all the attributes needed to succeed. If only you listened you would do it 10 years sooner lol

I love yo to Poo.

Thanks for helping Dave appreciated.

Kyle, keep learning, your doing great, you have an open mind and time spent lifting and reading will be invaluable.

To the others, I have 30 years experience, 100 clients in my, another hundred via the web, how can you honestly believe I could post up all of my training ideals in a few posts.

I cant. Of course I love massive muscles, low bodyfat. all my clients curl....after theyve squatted, deadlifted, cleaned. Elbow health is very important.

You guys think you can work out PTC from 20 posts. You could train there for a year and still only know 10% about me.

My website is not an add,evety client gets pics taken of.

My offer to lift with my weak, small clients is still on for September. Come show them up lol..........bring your strong.

I'll be back as I get some more time.

PTC said:

You guys think you can work out PTC from 20 posts. You could train there for a year and still only know 10% about me.

.

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And vice versa.You can`t sum people up here without meeting them or indeed criticize them or this forum.
Good to see you back BTW.

PTC i am not saying you are incorrect, you definatly know 1000 times more about this then me, My point is, just because you beleive your way is the best way (and tbh it probably is ) doesnt mean the way everone else does it is incorrect.

You said your self, you have 30yrs experience in this, I have less then one, so to ridicule me or someone who else like me for not knowing the absolute best way to build strength is a bit harsh.

I like my workouts and regularly get DOMS after i have really hammered a muscle, and I monitor my results very closely and i am definatly seeing the results i want.Yes there may be one or two exercises im doing that are not very good but im sure in time i will realise what these are.

PTC said:

First off, I've been really busy, my latest newsletter is 13 pages long.

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From someone who used to blog, my advice is to space them out. Just as there's times when you're inspired to do 5 in one week, there'll be other times when you don't want to do one for a month. Just publish them every Sunday (or whatever) whenever you happened to have read them. Regular publishing gets regular readers!

PTC said:

Looks like somebody wants to make a book out of them, sorry I havent been on here.

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Congratulations, that'll be a good read, best of luck with that!

Seeing as this thread is all about strength now... Allow me to brag.

I am now doing 3x8 reps on 140kg squat, not impressive by PTC standards but I had never squatted in my life until 3 months ago starting on 60kg, so I'm rapped with it Also, I started chin ups a month ago, I could only manage 3x3, now I'm doing 5x7 reps

My advice to everyone in this thread, from a guy with only a few years experience (At least I'm not a complete newb) Using some of Kyles words...

1. Eat well
2. Sleep well
3. Train HARD
4. Vary exercises, don't ever stick to the same thing for ages
5. Enjoy yourself.

The results will come

PTC said:

Bree, you are exactly the kind of client I like, fiesty and strong, how could you ever think I could hate someone that displays all the attributes needed to succeed. If only you listened you would do it 10 years sooner lol
.

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Oh shucks, make me blush. You'd be proud I just did my first bum to ground squat, crap weight though. I have twisted achilles tendons that I have refused to have operated on and after much research have finally found something to get some movement back, something no physio, etc has ever been able to achieve.

Could use your advice about my girl hands. Doing grip work, but my hands are so small, I can't even get them the whole way round a 10kg dumb bell and it causes havoc with heavier lifts unless I wear straps.