Is it possible to build muscle AND lose fat at the same time?

I should one day start a thread to explain how PTC came about, it was an accident lol

Anyway, off topic

I think fitness is becoming too complicated and scientific

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Personally, I think fitness and nutrition has always been complicated because science plays an important role in both these fields. The difference is that many years ago, the science just wasn't available, so much was left to chance. Even today, much of the science still isn't completely understood though due to the complexity of the human body.

I guess there are many ways you can look at both fitness and nutrition; art or science. Personally, being as analytical as I am with a science background, I greatly appreciate the science and will never prescribe something to a client based on "feel" alone. I do however appreciate that there is certainly an art to bodybuilding too. I really think the best approach is to find a happy balance between the two.

Another issue is that gyms in resent years are becoming less and less hardcore to the point where they are almost advocating mediocrity.

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I agree in many circumstances. But health and fitness has become so mainstream that this is what the market is now demanding. I think hardcore gyms certainly have their place, but so do "fitness" gyms for the more general population.

While there is no question that the science can take a physique from outstanding to superb, very very few people get anywhere near outstanding.

All that is needed to get to outstanding is discipline, sound nutrition, hard training and rest. No science whatsover needed there.

The problem with todays lifters is they think they can jump from crap to superb with science. And do it at a fitness gym.

That was the purpose of the Physical Culture newsletters a few issues ago, to show what can be achieved from yesterdays values. Before it got complicated.

aminoz said:

I agree in many circumstances. But health and fitness has become so mainstream that this is what the market is now demanding. I think hardcore gyms certainly have their place, but so do "fitness" gyms for the more general population.

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Most gyms seem to have become what the Seppos call sports clubs or health clubs.They definitely have their place but so many of them don`t have dumbells over 20kg or even a bench press.
There is a new one here just opened up next door to a friends place that has all bases covered.Indoor tennis courts,a golf driving place,studios and all the modern machines.PLUS they have 2 benches with many,many weights,squat racks,dumbells.If you need something,just talk to the manager and he will look into it.They once only had up to 30kg dumbells but after a request they got up to 40.The instructors are the best and the boss is a big dude who loves the hardcore side of it.
The only drawback to the place is the owner.A real dipshit.He has the best place in town,the best staff but he can`t keep them.He makes too many unreasonable demands of them and they move on.

You would have been both amused and annoyed by the conversation I heard at lunchtime the other day as the boys discussed supplements. It was all creatine this and glutamine that and arginine the other, what about water retention and don't we need to cycle this supplement? Wonderful broscience.

A couple of them had bags with several bottles of pills, it was $46 for this bottle and $20 for that, I didn't ask how much they spent in all but it must add up quick...

And the proportionally strongest guy there (bodyweight 69.5kg, bench 1x 102.5kg, deadlift 5x 120kg, squat 10x 90kg, apart from the bench he's never tried to max out) and also pretty fit guy (9 or so on the beep test, the fittest of all the guys in that conversation) is a guy who just does martial arts and doesn't lift weights, has never taken a supplement or even protein powder in his life.

But there they were lecturing him about supplements, when really they should have been asking him about his training and diet.

Okay, I am a big believer in science. I'm not a creationist or anything like that. But what it comes down to is that if you have someone who has lost fat and gained muscle on a high-carb diet, and someone else who is the strongest and fittest one in your little group and he never took protein powder or supplements, well then it is time to have a chat to those guys about their experiences, and maybe re-examine some of your science... or broscience.

It`s not even broscience,it`s marketing.I bet they were just spewing out whatever it said on the labels or the latest mag they had read.
I see the big guys have a protein shake after a workout and maybe a pill/powder or two before and after but all the weekend warriors,wankers and wannabes shovel the stuff in and don`t get anywhere near the results.
Hello..???!!!

nice work Kyle i gotta get into my cardio and eat better too not just for better abs but for over all fitness and looking good without a shirt of course. No shirt required weather! bring on summer!

Crossfit gyms are springing up everywhere, aspects of Crossfit aren't too bad to add for a little bit of cardio. The internet is a great fitness resource. There is so much out there to learn and take you to much higher levels of fitness. The marketing has become so heavily involved. Many athletes are paid to get fat to promote a supplement to show the before and after shots. Summer is definetly the best motivator to training hard. As nothing can beat looking great on the beach.

Zarkov said:

It`s not even broscience,it`s marketing.I bet they were just spewing out whatever it said on the labels or the latest mag they had read.
I see the big guys have a protein shake after a workout and maybe a pill/powder or two before and after but all the weekend warriors,wankers and wannabes shovel the stuff in and don`t get anywhere near the results.
Hello..???!!!

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That's very true..reps for that. The fact that ppl tend to look for the "magic pill" makes it very easy for companies who're selling pills, powders etc. All marketing has to do is bullsh*t about how it's magic.

USP Labs Powerfull is just one example. I'm using that product which gives me better sleep and I appreciate that (since my sleep used to suck). But the way they market it is just ridiculous...

Hi Katie,

You wrote:

To build muscle requires a calorie excess.

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To lose fat requires a calorie deficit.

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The answer is so simple if you just look carefully at the wording of the question. To answer your question in a single word: NO.

You see katie, the only thing here that requires calorie excess is weight gain, not muscle gain. So if you increase your calories above maintenance level, you will gain weight. That weight is fat and muscle with the ratio depending on whether you're training and the type of training you're involved in.

Now to increase muscles without gaining Wight, you keep your calories at maintenance level, where you don't increase in bodyweight or decrease. Again, here training is key and the determining factor of how your body composition shifts.

I hope that made things clearer for you Champion.


Fadi.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh I see! Thanks so much Fadi

I weighed myself this morning. 59.4kg and 164/165cm, probably wouldn't hurt to increase my weight anyway. I'll probably increase my calories above maintenance for the 8 week bulk (through drinking milk), then take away the milk for the 10 week cut...

Fadi expresses it very clearly as only a very experienced person can!

An interesting thing I happened across while reading about the "5x5" programmes was here, where the guy talks about diet. He says that a caloric surplus is required to gain muscle, but,

This made a lot of sense to me: you need a caloric surplus, but your big belly or bum can supply that... to a point, and that point is a healthy bodyfat level.

In my case, I went from about 26% to 15% bodyfat while gaining muscle over six months. Around 15% my lifts began to plateau, and I felt I needed to eat more. And this last month, the seventh of training, has confirmed it - I've lost some more fat but not gained any more muscle.

did u break through ur plateau? were u trying to increase weights or reps on any given exercise?

This past month has been my plateau, basically. Some exercises went up, but they'd started very low because they were new for me (eg squat). My body composition didn't change much, 1cm less on the waist but that's under the margin of error of measurement.

But I have changed my approach and diet so I expect my results to change, too. It's a long journey.

Thanks for your positive comment Kyle; much appreciated coming from someone of your calibar my friend.

By the way, due to the "fun" time you and I were having in the begining, I have totaly forgot to ask: what is your goal these days mate? I've always said that two heads on the same wave lengh are always better than one.

You never know, I may be able to help you with something.


Fadi.

Katie, what exactly are you trying to achieve, I'm not clear on this aspect with you? You're the same height as me by the way.

You mentioned drinking milk, bulking, cutting, etc. Fill me in so I don't sound stupid please.

I hope you're not drinking your normal estrogen/growth hormone filled milk Katie. And I also hope you're not drinking low or no fat milk either; or homogenised for that matter.


Fadi.

Fadi

Thanks for taking the time to ask about my goals. I guess my goals are just that - build muscle, lose fat. I have never been particularly strong despite my hobby of rockclimbing for 3 years (I developed some great technique to compensate for my lack of strength). When I first started working out about 3 months ago I could only do 1 full pushup on my toes - that's it!! And barely a chinup/pullup. Terrible, eh?

My goals are just to get stronger in general eg. bodyweight squat (ie. 60kg), or 1.5BW deadlift (90kg), or to crank out 10 unassisted chinups from a dead hang!

I drink whole milk, lite milk is disgusting! So hopefully on the right track there.

My training is sporadic, I'm known as "Keen Katie" on these forums because I do way too many things eg. rockclimbing, running, basketball. This weekend I am going to finish setting up my home gym (just need barbell and plates) and then I am ready to roll.

Re: the bulking and the cutting, that was suggested by other forum members here - that I should gain weight over a period of 8-10 weeks (bulk) and then attempt to drop the fat while keeping the muscle over the next 8-10 weeks (cut). Basically being in week 1 of my bulk I am eating like a horse... and drinking a litre of whole milk a day.

It’s my pleasure Katie. By the way, I love your name. I’m finding it very difficult to communicate with non human names on this forum.

Katie, let’s take one thing at a time and totally forget about the other, i.e. losing fat. There’s nothing wrong with fat at some points in time. I did read somewhere on the forum that you may be interested in becoming a figure competitor in the future. That is great too, but like I’ve said already, I’d really like you to slow down and concentrate on a single task (goal) at a time. So now it’s gaining some weight. We just have to get the training right to insure maximum lean mass added instead of fat. It’s all about ratios here Katie.

I’m beginning to think that your strength advancement is being hindered by all the other activities that you’re pursuing. Would you agree with me on that and possibly attempt to ease back a bit on other muscle eating activities? Like I mentioned already on this forum; to get strong is not hard.

Is your first love (apart from hubbie), rock climbing or is it getting mighty strong? I never want to hear you put yourself down again either. Nothing you have achieved in your exercises can ever be classified as terrible, nothing. And that’s final, strong woman!

I’m a great believer in the power of the mind when it comes to training. Have you considered visualisation? You need to see Katie squatting 80kg, not 60kg. I’ll show you exactly how to do that, but first we’ll have to get the master computer in gear. What do you say Champion?

Can you get aggressive when you need to or are you a placid type of girl? We need some fire in the belly if we’re going to get over our hurdles Katie. If you’re my height (164cm) and weigh 60kg (which is what I weighed the first time I ever touched an Olympic bar at 15), then we’re going to aim for 100kg squat. You’re going to be playing with 60kg before you know it. This is not just talk.

You say you nearly finished with setting your own home gym; I say that’s absolutely great. When you’ve done that, get my attention somehow and we’ll start rolling.

Just one last thing, people here have advised you to bulk up for a certain time then drop back etc. Katie, with all due respect to everyone here, this is a bit like putting water in a bucket that has a hole in it. The reason I say that is because the main cause of your problem as I see it and as you have admitted (but for some reason no one has picked), is that the extraneous activities you’re doing are the cause of the lack of progress in your strength department. So it’s not about putting on weight and losing it etc. How can you hope to put on weight when you’re running around like there’s no tomorrow? It aint happening!

So please let this post of mine be the identifier of the cause of the problem, from where we can now proceed forward with a solution. That will be in my next post and when you get your gym ready. Take care strong Katie (and not keen Katie).


Fadi.

Fadi, you can find my immediate goals in my gym journal thread (see signature below), thanks for asking. I lay them out in the first post.

Of course I back up Fadi on his comments about Katie. She is a very energetic woman, if she puts that energy towards just one goal she'll do marvellously at it; if she spreads that energy among several goals she'll still do well but be dissatisfied with her results.