Glycogen depletion and super-compensation Questions

[Aero]

Just finished reading Lyle Mcdonals Ultimate Diet 2 book. For those who haven't read it/don't know about it, the diet/workout plan basically follows this:

(For the purpose of this discussion, aim is maximum fat loss)

Monday & Tuesday -Low Carb/Calorie. Half of maintenance cals, but no less than 1200cal. 20% total cals from carbs. High rep glycogen depletion training

Wednesday- Nutritionally same as monday and tuesday, however no training. Can do light cardio if you wish.

Thursday- AM: 75% of daily calories before 3pm (if you were eating 1200cal/day, you'd eat 900cals before 3pm)

PM: Begin Carb load after workout. Carb load lasts for 30 hours, recommended to eat between 12-16g CHO per kg bodyweight. (70kg lifter eats between 1000-1200g CHO, plus normal protein and fat amounts = 5000-6000cals)

Friday- Continue carb load during the day, no training

Saturday - morning heavy workout, return to eating around 10-20% less than maintenance

Sunday - rest day, 10-20% less than maintenance, option of tapering CHO off later to begin glycogen depletion a little earlier for monday.

Obviously thats a very condensed version and he goes into a lot more detail, an interesting book actually.

My question is this:

General research found that it takes between 24-48 hours to deplete liver and muscle glycogen, and a minimum of 24 hours to supercompensate the glycogen stores after that.

Assume I'm eating roughly 50g CHO per day, the rest made up of protein and about 40-50g fat. (I'm 78kg/180cm and workout for about an hour mon-fri, occasionally sat)

Could you glycogen load twice, maybe with smaller amounts and still continue to lose fat? Ie:

Mon - Glycogen deplete
Tues - Glycogen Deplete, begin load at last meal
Wed - Smaller glycogen load (6-8g CHO per kg). Begin deplete after PM workout
Thurs - Glycogen Deplete
Fri - Glycogen Deplete, begin load after PM workout
Sat - Glycogen Load
Sun - Either maintenance or low carb day

tl;dr
Basically I'm just wondering if it is possible to deplete and load in a 3 day cycle, but with smaller amounts of CHO twice a week as opposed to one large load once a week?

 

[jzpowahz]

I think you're theory sounds doable.

First thing I'd say though is what is you're current approximate BF%? As I wouldn't bother with the strict nature of something like UD2 unless you were already pretty lean and have lost as much weight as possible with "traditional" dieting.

 

[Christian]

I had someone doing something similar. Lost bodyfat gained lean mass. It is VERY hard mentally and physicaly though. You feel like shit, your digestion goes to shit. But for 10-12 weeks works wonders.

I wouldnt bother with the smaller glycogen load. I dont see the relevance? Your going against the main goal.

 

[Aero]

Surprisingly I cope fairly well on low carbs, so psychologically it isn't that bad. Last week mon-sat average CHO intake was 46g per day, and calories averaged out to 1750 per day. It was essentially the UD2 without a massive carb up, I just ate normally/a bit over maintenance on sunday. Went out for breakfast and had the regular sunday night nice dinner.

Approximate bodyfat would be 12-13% using calipers. I carry most of my fat in my lower abs/obliques, barely any on lower body.

My theory behind the 2 smaller glycogen loads would be that it would maintain more LBM will still using fat as fuel, also making the diet in theory a bit easier, which doesn't bother me as much. Eating a normal dinner with the family mid week would be nice instead of making my own, but I don't really mind. Variety of food doesn't interest me that much at the moment as I'm more focused on my goal than enjoying food lots currently.

 

[IRON TANKS]

Give it a go, but ultimately it will come down to how far under deficit you are.

Eat a diet of some nuts, lean proteins and fibrous greens and you will strip body fat regardless of any manipulation you do in terms of glycogen depletion - particularly at 12-13% bodyfat. Once you dip under 9% various these techniques can help push you lower.

For me it comes down to cutting your CHO/calories down enough to cut bodyfat, but not too much for lethargy to impede on your training intensity.

Lyle's stuff is relatively well referenced, so give it a go and see how you pull up

 

[Bazza20]

Looks way to complicated for someone at 12-13%BF

 

[Aero]

Give it a go, but ultimately it will come down to how far under deficit you are.

Eat a diet of some nuts, lean proteins and fibrous greens and you will strip body fat regardless of any manipulation you do in terms of glycogen depletion - particularly at 12-13% bodyfat. Once you dip under 9% various these techniques can help push you lower.

For me it comes down to cutting your CHO/calories down enough to cut bodyfat, but not too much for lethargy to impede on your training intensity.

Lyle's stuff is relatively well referenced, so give it a go and see how you pull up

Essentially what my diet is at the moment. Chicken/fish, broccoli/salad/other greens, nandos sauce and peanut butter...and bacon. If im down majorly on carbs before training ill have 15-20g CHO before training just for a bit of a boost.

Looks way to complicated for someone at 12-13%BF

I'm more interested in the science and effects on the body as opposed to losing as much fat as possible currently. I enjoy being a lab rat and experimenting with my own body as well as the science behind it all more than anything. I study business at Uni, so reading about the body is 100x more interesting than reading about management theories mad and I actually get to put it into practice.

Ultimately fat loss is the final goal, however I'd like to try a few different methods in the process to figure out what works best for me

 

[Matt]

Lyle gives a formula for glycogen depletion in his book about keto, and a recommended workload to achieve it. I guess if you can do the work required to deplete yourself to the point where supercompensation kicks in, then it's worth a go.

might i suggest though, that instead of starting your supercompensation the night before, you don't eat any fats or carbs after around lunch, then train early in the morning the next day (will a little bcaa hit pre-training) then hit your carbs HARD in your post-workout meal. compounding a slightly longer low-carb stretch with your body's usual supercompensatory response to resistance training might help your short refeeds.
might not, though. i'm still learning when it comes to nutrition, so i could be a little off the mark

 

[PowerBuilder]

There are definite easier ways of getting shredded than using a weird template of glycogen depletion/supercompo.

Don't forget that musclular glycogen depletion doesn't happen in a vaccum. There are many different things at play. You should make sure you're taking in enough water soluble vitimans....on a low carb diet you are likely to piss, breath and sweat it out a lot. But anyway...

 

[Aero]

I've ended up just trialling his Ultimate Diet 2 for 5 weeks. So far so good, I function really well on low carb so it isn't that hard for me. Carb load day last week was a struggle, got nowhere near the amount that he recommended I have so have upped carbs slightly during the week to balance it out a little.

Adding cardio in this week so will see how I'm going in another 3 weeks and re assess