Forgive me father, for I have sinned

Jim Wendler says the fastest way to bench 400 is to press 300
And I'm more inclined to follow what he says, as he gives logical arguments instead of appeal to authority.

Pendlay & Broz also agree that increasing your push press is the best way to increase pressing altogether. If you get a guy that can push press 140kg, he's going to be good at pressing all round. The same is not the case with the bench press, if you bench 160kg then you won't get the same carry over.

T NATION | Too Much Muscle: The Glenn Pendlay Secret
Page 2:
"Pendlay: The push press has more carryover to pressing in general – bench press etc. – than any other upper body exercise. Show me a guy who can push press a big weight and he's going to be able to excel at any other pressing movement, even if he's never done it before.

A big bench presser doesn't get that same carryover. I don't want to have 400-pound bench pressers who can't do anything else. The guy who can do heavy push presses doesn't have that problem. He's strong at everything.

And that can't be done with the strict military press either. It's too hard to get it moving. You have such a weak point at the start that it limits the amount of weight you can use.

With a push press, you can put 10 to 20% more weight over your head. You're forced to develop the ability to recruit those muscle fibers very quickly because you're pushing the bar off your shoulders with your legs and then your arms have to come into play, fast, so it doesn't stall. The ability to do that is very, very valuable.

Second, with the push press there's just a huge overload at the top. That last six inches at the top is like doing a partial. That has a powerful effect on the body."

Fadi said:

Forgive me Sticky, but I'm getting a little bit confused with some of the comments made in this thread. Let me clarify what I'm talking about.

I see the comparison made between apples and oranges here with regard to some comments. I know and I'm also very familiar with the difference that is; a push, a jerk, and finally... a press. None of the three techniques would I place in the one and same category.

I'm not saying you (or anyone else here) is wrong, that's not what I’m about. What I am saying however is, are we not creating a bit of a confusion when we mix the terms, jerk, push, and press together?

Your clarification would be much appreciated Sticky. Thank you Sir.


Fadi.

Click to expand...

My bad.
I know its a different movment, but the point I was trying to get across was.... To get a big bench, you must bench, then do lots of rows. Not overhead work.
While you may get some carry over from doing overhead work, It wont be nearly as affective as benching.

Oni is planning to REPLACE benching with overhead work, to increase his bench press.......
At the level Oni is at, all he needs to do is eat and bench.

0ni said:

How did the deadlifts 3x a week go? What is your squat:deadlift ratio and how long did it take to adapt? The reason I ask is that my deadlift is pretty high compared to my squat and when I was doing heavy sets of 5's and 3's it would often make me very tired for the next week, but is this something that I just need to push through and eventually I'll adapt to? I currently do speed pulls once a week just to maintain the groove and am using squats as my main deadlift builder but I think being able to do max pulls several times a week would be awesome

Click to expand...

Deadlifts 3x a week worked awesome. My deadlift is heaps better than my squat and it didn't take that long to adapt to deadlifting more often. You do have the odd shit session but usually the next one is really good.

Someone who can push press a massive weight is just strong they are going to have a pretty good bench even if they don't practice it but I'm not sold on replacing bench with overhead stuff if your goal is a good bench.

I can push press an ok weight but my bench sucks. If things keep going as they are I will probably soon push press more than I bench.

Sticky said:

To get a big bench, you must bench, then do lots of rows. Not overhead work.
While you may get some carry over from doing overhead work, It wont be nearly as affective as benching.

Oni is planning to REPLACE benching with overhead work, to increase his bench press.......
At the level Oni is at, all he needs to do is eat and bench.

Click to expand...

IMO thats totally on the money. If benching more is the aim- bench more.

My opinion regrading overhead press (not push press) to bench press strength...

In my experience and opinion, yes there is a decent carry over to bench press from over head press. Yes overhead press does have a carry over to bench press, more so then bench press carries over to overhead press.

However that said, I don't believe that anyone should focus on overhead press if they are really want to get a big bench and aren't concerned with other presses.

I consider my overhead press better then my bench press in comparision, 95kg OHP to 125kg BP.

If overhead press had a direct carry over to bench press, then why I do bench press so much less then sticky (just an example). Who as far as I know OHP's around the same as me? I can give more examples.

As for push press, yes its a decent assistance work choice for increasing tricep strength. That's about it as far as I'm concerned. To many variables for any direct connection to be made (due to leg drive).

Sticky said:

My bad.
I know its a different movment, but the point I was trying to get across was.... To get a big bench, you must bench, then do lots of rows. Not overhead work.
While you may get some carry over from doing overhead work, It wont be nearly as affective as benching.

Oni is planning to REPLACE benching with overhead work, to increase his bench press.......
At the level Oni is at, all he needs to do is eat and bench.

Click to expand...

Ah, okay thanks so much for your clarification Sir.

I'm 100% with you that if you need strength in a particular movement, then you perform that movement and/or, as we did in weightlifting, you break that movement in little pieces and focus on getting strong/powerful in each of those segments of that lift in question.


Fadi.

No worries Fadi.

I would take spritchads advice over broz or pendaly anyday.

Sticky said:

My bad.
I know its a different movment, but the point I was trying to get across was.... To get a big bench, you must bench, then do lots of rows. Not overhead work.
While you may get some carry over from doing overhead work, It wont be nearly as affective as benching.

Oni is planning to REPLACE benching with overhead work, to increase his bench press.......
At the level Oni is at, all he needs to do is eat and bench.

Click to expand...

Re-read what I said. I said I was going to use push press as my main stimulus, not replace benching completely with overhead work. I wrote quite clearly that I'd be benching 3x a week.

Bazza20 said:

Deadlifts 3x a week worked awesome. My deadlift is heaps better than my squat and it didn't take that long to adapt to deadlifting more often. You do have the odd shit session but usually the next one is really good.

Click to expand...

I'm thinking having 1 heavy deadlift session a week and one speed bench session supplemented with lots of high bar and front squats and see how that goes from there. Thanks for the info!

dandexter said:

If overhead press had a direct carry over to bench press, then why I do bench press so much less then sticky (just an example). Who as far as I know OHP's around the same as me? I can give more examples.

Click to expand...

Those who compete in PL events do lots of work to increase their bench as it's one of their 3 events and so their OHP falls behind.

Those who are training for general/recreational strength however, tend to gravitate toward a 66:100 ratio if they're following a program that uses both movements (Wendler, SS, GSLP, etc, etc). All I'm saying is it's something I've noticed on multiple training logs / websites / forums / friends etc

Sticky said:

No worries Fadi.

I would take spritchads advice over broz or pendaly anyday.

Click to expand...

I would think it is pretty stupid to totally disregard any of those blokes advise. Take bits of information that apply to you from all of them.

I didn't say I wouldn't, but If you want to bench more, talk to a guy that benches 300kgin competion like Steve, not an oly coach.

My way of thinking.

Sticky said:

I didn't say I wouldn't, but If you want to bench more, talk to a guy that benches 300kgin competion like Steve, not an oly coach.

My way of thinking.

Click to expand...

agreed

Like I said

Bazza20 said:

Take bits of information that apply to you from all of them.

Click to expand...

Although I think pendlay put up some decent PL numbers before he went over to OL so he should have some good knowledge on PL.

Why anyone would limit themselves to one piece of information and disregard other advice because they are "oly coaches" is beyond me. They still get people strong, a lot more people than "Steve" has got strong and train powerlifters as well. Don't forget, Pendlay was a powerlifter.

So much win in this thread.

Oni, I honestly think that the reason you never made great progress with any of those programs is because you never stuck to them or or applied yourself wholeheartedly.

And when your bench is as weak as yours then bench for bench. OH as a supplement but bench volume is key.

When Wendler said the best way to bench 400 was to press 300 I think it best applies to people who can at least bench 200-300...

El Freako said:

So much win in this thread.

Oni, I honestly think that the reason you never made great progress with any of those programs is because you never stuck to them or or applied yourself wholeheartedly.

And when your bench is as weak as yours then bench for bench. OH as a supplement but bench volume is key.

When Wendler said the best way to bench 400 was to press 300 I think it best applies to people who can at least bench 200-300...

Click to expand...

I agree that there is a psychological part, but because people told me a beginner routine was best I tried my hardest with it. I often would miss lifts, so I don't think it's a case with "not trying hard enough" but the intermediate 5x5 routines are working great for me

0ni said:

I agree that there is a psychological part, but because people told me a beginner routine was best I tried my hardest with it. I often would miss lifts, so I don't think it's a case with "not trying hard enough" but the intermediate 5x5 routines are working great for me

Click to expand...

Just make sure you stick with it, not for 1 month, or 3 months, stick with it until you can actually consider yourself strong.

5x5's are working well?

Well why not stick to it?

Your OP says your going to go ME every day on squats, and then deadlifts too......



Which is it?

Sticky said:

My bad.
I know its a different movment, but the point I was trying to get across was.... To get a big bench, you must bench, then do lots of rows. Not overhead work.
While you may get some carry over from doing overhead work, It wont be nearly as affective as benching.

Oni is planning to REPLACE benching with overhead work, to increase his bench press.......
At the level Oni is at, all he needs to do is eat and bench.

Click to expand...

the same subject came up in my training log a while back.

now i cbf reading over the last 3 or 4 pages thoroughly, but what i will say is;
the best way to increase your bench, is to bench. simple as that. you will prefect your technique, and excuse my way of explaining but also that motor pattern thingo where u do the same movement over and over and your body remembers is and gets stronger in that grove thing. (LOL) by benching to increase bench u are working the muscles EXACTLY how they will be used.

brb going to increase my squat by doing good mornings, leg presses and curls.

(sorry for my tired explanation but u get the idea)

Sticky said:

5x5's are working well?

Well why not stick to it?

Your OP says your going to go ME every day on squats, and then deadlifts too......



Which is it?

Click to expand...

Plan is to gradually increase the frequency as I adapt to the workload. This is the plan that Pendlay has outlay for me. I don't think that I will ME deadlifts every day though, that + squats + pressing seems a little too much lol.

The 5x5 plan isn't really a "routine" but a system that is to be adjusted as you adapt. Starr said that the best way to progress on the 5x5 routine is to start adding training days and this is detailed in Rippetoads book "practical programming for strength training".

"Wise man points at the moon, idiot looks at the finger" applies here. Not saying that you're an idiot at all, just that the daily workouts are the end point, where I am aiming to be at but there is a good 2-3 years of training ahead of me before I get to "the moon". I'll start doing daily squats & pressing ASAP though, just keeping it to lighter percentages