Daryl and Jack

[PTC]

This story has come about due to the recent discussion on training, that a "popular" type program is as good or better than a "srength" based one for a beginner.

Daryl and Jack are 17, they both play soccer together and are in the same class at school. They are mates.

Jack joins a "normal" person gym and does "normal" person training there, just like his older brother. He tells his mate Daryl to join him. Both boys weigh 60kg. August/September 2009, both boys are benching 60kg.

Daryl decides to train with his mate Max, who is growing very quickly. Max trains Daryl 3 x week.

June 2010, Jack is still a weed benching 60kg, training at the "normal" person gym.

In August, Daryl will break the World Record raw bench press (in his class) with a 120kg bench press. Daryl now weighs 70kg, squats 140kg, deadlifts 170kg, he is still 17.

Daryl has added 10kg to his frame, squats over double bodyweight and has added 60kg to his bench.

An unbelievably simple 3 x weeek program using basic compounds, has turned this kid into a muscle bound little freak.

He already has 7 National Powerlifting Records, both as a teenager and in the open section.

His lifts pale in comparison with his physique though.

 

[Fadi]

His lifts pale in comparison with his physique though.

Who cares about the physique when the name of his game is strength! And if his physique looks strong to match his lifts, then that's just icing on one strong cake. So well done to mighty Daryl and all the best in his future endeavours.

Fadi.

 

[Dancelot]

Are you sure you watch everything Daryl does, Markos? He might be a closet splitter, doing a chest/tri, back/bi and whatever else that rhymes routine behind your back. Ask Max to watch him next time, he may attempt to squeeze at the top when he thinks nobody's looking.

 

[Nutter]

It's the only way to go PTC I enjoyed your story thank you.

 

[PTC]

Nah, Daryl only trains here, I bring him home from school.

He is only competing in Bench section of the Nationals. The WR is 95kg in the 67.5kg class. He tripled 105kg last night, each rep paused.

Fadi, Daryl loves the ladies, he dresses so they notice him. He is a tank now, around 160cm and 70kg, visible abs.

 

[Fadi]

Nah, Daryl only trains here, I bring him home from school.

Fadi, Daryl loves the ladies, he dresses so they notice him. He is a tank now, around 160cm and 70kg, visible abs.

Please tell 17 year young Daryl that he's really blessed for he most certainly is in great hands; I mean that coach.


Fadi.

 

[DKD]

I find it interesting how split routines can often be the subject of ridicule, on a forum called AUSBB. Craft hit the nail on the head recently when he said this should be called AUSPL.

This guy Daryl must be some sort of a freak to be breaking a world record 9 months after starting lifting, so he may not be an accurate guauge of what the average bloke can expect.

My goals are physique related. I think it's a hell of a lot better to have a physique to be truly proud of than to be able to lift 20 or 30 kgs more than the next guy. PTC mentioned that Daryl has a great physique, but for every Daryl, how many strength-focussed guys are there that are bulky and dense-muscled (and slightly chubby) rather than truly ripped. PTC said hmself that Derkaderka looked better than 99% of the guys on this forum and he did a split routine.

I watched a good video recently from a pro bodybuilder named Cottrell Porter. He really drums it into the viewer during the video that "the objective is to work the muscle, not move the weight". He doesn't even deadlift or squat, and has a great physique.

I really appreciate the helpful advice I've received from all the guys here and I may well move to one of the beginner programs advocated here sometime in the future, but I think people should realise as Craft said, "there is more than 1 way to skin a cat".

 

[Dancelot]

DKD, the original bodybuilders from the golden age of physical culture trained the same way as old school weightlifters, powerlifters or strongmen. In fact, they were mostly the same fellas doing everything. I dare say, they looked better than the vast majority of modern professional bodybuilders (most just look freaky to me).

You can look up a few names like Eugene Sandow, Steve Reeves, John Grimek, Tommy Kono etc.

PTC mentioned that Daryl has a great physique, but for every Daryl, how many strength-focussed guys are there that are bulky and dense-muscled (and slightly chubby) rather than truly ripped.

Irrelevant to training, because that's a result of diet.

 

[Goosey]

If Daryl and jack were twins it would be an interesting story, but even then it's not a good comparison.

The only true measure is comparing oneself at one point in time to another.

Let's get rid of the dogma fella's, this forum of weekend warriors ain't going to solve the age old question; which is the best way".
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Fadi]

I think people should realise as Craft said, "there is more than 1 way to skin a cat".

And I couldn't agree more with you DKD if I tried!

I've always advocated that variety is king, but not at the expense of a solid rock foundation.


Fadi.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

I find it interesting how split routines can often be the subject of ridicule, on a forum called AUSBB.

It's not so much that they're the subject of ridicule, more that they're just not appropriate for formerly sedentary beginners - which is the vast majority of posters who'll pop up on a forum asking questions.

We've one or two competitive bodybuilders who've popped up here, they want to do splits, well for them it's appropriate. But that's just one or two out of hundreds of posters.

Craft hit the nail on the head recently when he said this should be called AUSPL.

Some of those focused on strength training would probably like that. But like you, they'd be wrong. The differences between powerlifters, Olympic lifters and bodybuilders are exaggerated by each group so they each can say, "me smart, you poopyhead." But all three are wrong. It's a bit of a wank, really.

This guy Daryl must be some sort of a freak to be breaking a world record 9 months after starting lifting, so he may not be an accurate guauge of what the average bloke can expect.

He's not an average bloke. The average bloke, as related in a recently linked article by Mark Rippetoe, comes to the gym three or four times, misses the next two scheduled sessions, comes once more, then never shows up again.

The average bloke does not put in a consistent effort over time, so the average bloke gets no good results at all.

That's the real difference between Daryl and Jack, not the exact routine they did, but consistency. Take any 17 year old kid, boy or girl, give them good food, give them a coach who picks them up from school for their workouts and who makes them make a consistent effort over 12 months, and they'll achieve remarkable things. By definition, only one person can hold a world record, so obviously those kids won't all achieve world records. But all will achieve remarkable things, more than they ever thought they could manage, and more than all those people working inconsistently, or not working at all.

I really appreciate the helpful advice I've received from all the guys here and I may well move to one of the beginner programs advocated here sometime in the future, but I think people should realise as Craft said, "there is more than 1 way to skin a cat".

I think that before you start talking about the vast gulf supposedly lying between strength and physique training you ought to actually complete a beginner's programme.

Then perhaps you'd realise that while there are many different roads, those different roads look remarkably similar, and lead to much the same place in the end. What really matters is to pick one road and walk steadily along it.

 

[Fadi]

I personally appreciate you taking the time to write what you did Kyle; thank you very much Sir.


Fadi.

 

[PTC]

Great example with Derka big fella, I'm pretty sure he came on here and said he uses steroids for his BB. I apologize if I have the wrong BB.

Daryl is not the only teenager lifter about to break a WR in August. Three others will have a crack. All 4 will have built a solid foundation of muscle to pursue any physical culture they wish in years to come, while those that BEGIN their lifting careers with split routines, will be sitting in lounge chairs talking about glory days.

This is obviously a generalization, please dont comment on it, show me your not that gullible.

The purpose of this thread, to show that a beginner should train like a beginner, not get ahead of himself by believing the hype.

A beginner was no different in the 50's, only they didnt have magazines sprouting all this monthly garbage.

 

[Fadi]

DKD, the message we're sending out here from the pages of Ausbb, is that we are not against split routines per se, but what we are against is when split routines take precedence over and at the expense of building a solid rock kick ass of a foundation first.

I spent 3 1/2 years of my life at hard knocks school before performing a single bicep curl, that's what we're about here...cutting through the hype and giving it to you like it is...as a brotherly advice.


Fadi.

 

[DKD]

Guys

I can understand the logic behind building the foundation. It makes perfect sense for a beginner to get a fast-tracked grounding in the basics by doing the full body workout 3 times a week. For that reason I've been giving thought to possibly exploring Markos' or Fadi's beginner programs, but I don't think i'd be too interested in Rippetoe's when my goals are hypertrophy, not strength.

I can also understand, and agree, that it's ridiculous for a complete beginner (i.e. starting from a sedentary state) to jump right into a split routine.

My approach was that I decided I wasn't happy with my flab and lack of muscle, so decided I wanted to look better. I wasn't sure exactly how I was going to go about it. I started doing a bit of cardio and bit of research. Initially I saw some interesting videos on YouTube about resistance band exercises, so bought some and got my initial training from them (don't laugh, I actually got some growth in the lats quite quickly just from anchoring the bands to the top of a door and doing pulldowns). I soon got some dumbbells and got stuck into an upper-body, lower-body split, solely based on db work. I then realised it was the weight-training that I really enjoyed, much more than the cardio.

So I got myself out of the sedentary state, got used to doing a few exercises, coping with the DOMS etc for about 2-3 months and then moved to a split routine after reading this beginner's guide:

Bodybuilding for the Beginner!


I'd be interested in the knowledgeable guys' views on this beginner guide because to me it looked brilliant, and I've been following it since, with a few tweeks based on my weak areas (eg, chest twice a week).

The guy in the link (Cashman) says don't overtrain, i.e. more than once a week, Fadi and Markos say full body 3 x week, argggghhh, it's all too much to take in!!! And nutrition, my god, I lost 14 kgs in the first 6 months, got lean, hint of 6 pack (more like 2 pack), then decided I wanted to increase muscle size. So now I'm bulking and have put on 9 kgs in just 2 months. The spare tyre has come back, which I expected and was ready for. The point I'm trying to make is that the whole process for a novice/beginner (whatever you want to call me) is riddled with best guess estimations. Anyway, I'll change it up every now and then, see how I go, might do the 3 X week thing. Sorry for long post, cheers.

 

[Goosey]

Good post Kyle.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

The guy in the link (Cashman) says don't overtrain, i.e. more than once a week, Fadi and Markos say full body 3 x week, argggghhh, it's all too much to take in!!!

Well, I can tell you that recovery is about how intense the session was, but it's also about nutrition and rest. Get nutrition and rest right and you can work out hard every day, get them wrong and you'll struggle with once a week.

If I just do 10 pushups, I can do 10 pushups again 10 minutes later, and do that all day - and again the next day. But load my bodyweight onto a squat bar and have me do 20 reps, well I can't do that again 10 minutes later, and probably I'll be sore tomorrow. That's intensity.

As for nutrition, well plainly if I do a hard workout, go home and knock back half a bottle of whiskey and eat nothing, I'm going to feel more sore tomorrow than if I went home and had a nice big dinner with steak, Fadi's tabouleh, and so on. That's nutrition. Eat to support your intensity.

Rest, well, again this is common sense. If after training I go home, shower and shave, gel my hair, put on my black tight shirt open to the navel and head out clubbing, popping e tabs all night until I stagger home at 5am and have to clean myself up to go to work, well obviously I'm going to have sorer muscles than if I went home and had a good ten hours' sleep. That's rest. Rest to support your intensity.

Fadi has told us that when at AIS used to work out every day for most of the day, but he also ate 13,500kcal daily, had afternoon naps and a good sleep at night, too. Plus massages and saunas and other things to help recovery. Correct me if I'm wrong, Fadi. The ordinary bloke living on meat pies and beer is really going to struggle even with just one session a week.

So putting all these things together, what we find is that some people can handle quite high intensities because their nutrition and rest are so good, others can't because it's all so poor. Somewhere between "all day, every day" and "hell barely once a week" is where most of us are with nutrition and rest. Thus the common advice to do a workout 3 days a week with a full clear day in between - and improve food and rest a bit beyond what the ordinary bloke manages.

Other things come into recovery besides intensity, nutrition and rest. Age for one thing. Us older blokes, recovery's a bit slower than for a 17 year old young man. Still, you could be surprised at what you can manage.

Really you just have to try things and see. Try working out once a week, or once for each muscle group or whatever, see what happens. Then try doing a full-body workout every day. Or 3 times a week. Or whatever. Just try things for a month or so. Find your own sweet spot, where everything comes together for you.

The point I'm trying to make is that the whole process for a novice/beginner (whatever you want to call me) is riddled with best guess estimations.

Yes. And that's how it'll always be. You just have to try things and see how they work for you. This is why it can be good to have an experienced coach, trainer or training partner, someone who's seen these things happen before, who can reassure and guide you.

Human bodies are quite individual in how they respond to things. Thus the guesstimates. It's inevitable, part of the hassle of training but also part of the joy of it - discovering things about your own body. Usually turns out to be able to do heaps more than you thought it could.

Now, as for articles...

When I was at my job interview recently the boss asked, "to you, what's the difference between a gym instructor and a personal trainer?" I replied, "personal, the gym instructor just says, "go do this", the PT personalises the advice for that individual, also personalising day-to-day based on the person's mood, response to training, and so on." The same's true of a strength and conditioning coach, or experienced training partner - they personalise things for you.

So you can trust the general advice tossed out into the internet by some guy who never talked to you, or you can trust the individualised, personalised advice by some guys who you can talk to every day. But when it all comes down to it, you really just have to try things and see.

Fadi, Silverback, thanks, means a lot coming from you guys.

 

[dave]

Kyle really said it well and DKD you would do well following Markos' program and doing it properly. You will get a solid strength and hypertrophy base to decide how you want to proceed later. Give it at least 6 months though.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[amac38]

love your posts Kyle, you're an asset to this forum.

thanks.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Cheers amac. I'm just putting in other words what smarter people than me have said first. I could just say, "go read Hackenschmidtt's The Way to Live" - or any one of a dozen other books - but nobody would do that.

The guys with the real knowledge are guys like Fadi and Markos. One thing I like about this forum, at others when you break Rule #1,264 of the internet and say those magic words, "I don't know," well at those other forums people take the chance to stick the boot in. Here the person who does know just steps on up and explains things.