Preworkout

[walt]

I'm still rockin this BN Pre workout NT and had a killer session this arvo in the gym. I'll be trying there non-caffeinated version next to see if I can find a product that doesn't affect my sleep. This one seems to have me wide awake at 4am, which I'm not happy about. Still loving it in the gym though. I'm only using 2 scoops at the moment, but also only using about once or twice a week, a 3-4 days apart.

what time are you using the pre workout?

 

[Nardy]

what time are you using the pre workout?

4:30-5pm, then going to bed around 11pm.

 

[sookie]

I use the nt at the same time but I sleep at 930 to 10

 

[Big Mick]

4:30-5pm, then going to bed around 11pm.

About the same here on workout days, sometimes I will have it as late as 6:30 pm when I work later, no problems with sleeping.

 

[willyboy]

how do you guys mix the BN preworkout?
I'm not sure if I used too much water when i tried it but i used 250ml and it tastes pretty good kinda like dilute lime mizone water, unlike most of the preworkout on the market right now which taste pretty bad

 

[Big Mick]

200-250ml iced water with 2-3 ice cubes, 10 gram pre workout, shake viperously and drink, I like the taste of it very refreshing

 

[Nardy]

200-250ml iced water with 2-3 ice cubes, 10 gram pre workout, shake viperously and drink, I like the taste of it very refreshing

Ditto, but without the ice. Iced water, about 300mL, I like the flavour also.

 

[willyboy]

yeah cos i did the whole 250ml cold water with a few ice cubes and was expecting some of the usual tasting crap but then BAM! taste quite good, i think im going to switch to BN

 

[kaz]

I love Jack3d, have seen a real difference in my stamina. My training is mostly crossfit based and have definately felt a difference. However I don't have caffeine in my diet and I'm not sure if this makes a difference....
Cheers
D

 

[trofius]

i do the 3 scoops of pre NT
30g dextrose
5g creatinine
10g BCAA
500ml cold water, drink in car on the way to gym

it does taste good, I noticed my last batch went a tad stale after a month, and the tatse dropped off.

 

[LMR01]

Although this has already been developed in the US, it would be good to do it here.

1. We need a product that has a carbohydrate to a protein ration of 4:1 or 3:1.

2. It has to be a simple carb with a high glycimic index.

3. It has to have some electrolytes.

4. It has to have some anti-oxidants

5. Its protein content has to be easily digested and assimilated, preferably WPI.

6. It has to taste good when mixed in water.

7. The above macro ratios are based on scientific facts. Please grab a hold of the book called Nutrient Timing by Dr. John Ivy and Dr.Robert Portman for all your info.

8. The above ratios are for pre/during/post. The only difference is in quantity.


Fadi.

The only issue i have with this is the inclusion of anti oxidants.

Vit C in particular has been show to soothe inflamatory cytokines at the site of the muscle trauma.

Ive also seen studies both pre and post on vit c and e which has show decreased insulin sensitivity.

Personally, i dont take any anti oxidants pre or post. (maybe with the exception of COQ10) which has had some cool data published regarding increased type II muscle fibres

Regards

LMR

 

[Fadi]

The only issue i have with this is the inclusion of anti oxidants.

Vit C in particular has been show to soothe inflamatory cytokines at the site of the muscle trauma.

Ive also seen studies both pre and post on vit c and e which has show decreased insulin sensitivity.

Personally, i dont take any anti oxidants pre or post. (maybe with the exception of COQ10) which has had some cool data published regarding increased type II muscle fibres

Regards

LMR

Please check the studies you've read re vitamin c and e and see if it's quantity related. Also, you are wasting your coq10 if you're not consuming it with enough fat, since it's a fat soluble compound.

Please look outside the box when mentioning vitamin C and insulin. Why do I say that? Because if you ate (sweets) as nature intended, your sweets would be fruits, and we all know that vitamin C is found in many fruits. So it’s either God has got it wrong; the scientists have got it wrong, or we're simply eating the wrong kind of "sweets"!

Here's an article for you to read on vitamin C: http://members.upnaway.com/~poliowa/How%20Vitamin%20C%20works.html

I've mentioned (on a previous occasion) 5 antioxidants which I would take (apart from others of course like olive leaf extract etc.) which work to regenerate/recycle each other. These are namely:

Vitamin C
Vitamin E
CoQ10
Lipoic acid
N-Acetyl Cysteine

Personally, i dont take any anti oxidants pre or post.

If I was to recommend anti-oxidants to people I care about, I would recommend they take it pre and post workouts. Why? Because I would not want to see their chances of getting cancer increasing due to their workouts. You've read that correctly. The extra consumption of oxygen (during a workout) is a potential "food' for the free radicals your workout has generated. Yes, CoQ10 plays its magic here, but CoQ10 is as powerful as the weakest link in the chain, for when it comes to anti-oxidants, it is a chain, a team, and not an individual anti-oxidant that is required to tackle the "baddies".

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Antioxidants/Introduction.html

PS: You've written two posts already on this forum, yet none regarding yourself. So how about going over here Hi Fadi and welcome to ausbb before you write yet another post. That's the way we prefer it here on Ausbb. Thank you for your time.


Fadi.

 

[LMR01]

Please check the studies you've read re vitamin c and e and see if it's quantity related. Also, you are wasting your coq10 if you're not consuming it with enough fat, since it's a fat soluble compound.

Please look outside the box when mentioning vitamin C and insulin. Why do I say that? Because if you ate (sweets) as nature intended, your sweets would be fruits, and we all know that vitamin C is found in many fruits. So it’s either God has got it wrong; the scientists have got it wrong, or we're simply eating the wrong kind of "sweets"!

Here's an article for you to read on vitamin C: http://members.upnaway.com/~poliowa/How%20Vitamin%20C%20works.html

I've mentioned (on a previous occasion) 5 antioxidants which I would take (apart from others of course like olive leaf extract etc.) which work to regenerate/recycle each other. These are namely:

Vitamin C
Vitamin E
CoQ10
Lipoic acid
N-Acetyl Cysteine

If I was to recommend anti-oxidants to people I care about, I would recommend they take it pre and post workouts. Why? Because I would not want to see their chances of getting cancer increasing due to their workouts. You've read that correctly. The extra consumption of oxygen (during a workout) is a potential "food' for the free radicals your workout has generated. Yes, CoQ10 plays its magic here, but CoQ10 is as powerful as the weakest link in the chain, for when it comes to anti-oxidants, it is a chain, a team, and not an individual anti-oxidant that is required to tackle the "baddies".

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Antioxidants/Introduction.html


Fadi.

Thanks for the links Fadi, ill be sure to check them out.

Ill have to dig around on my PC some of the studies, unfortunatly i can't remember the doseages used of the top of my head.

In general i'm on the fence re antioxidants. I know this isn't a popular viewpoint, (and i'm by no means trying to be argumentative here) but some reaseachers are begining to think that free radicals actually play an important role in many processes.

The thinking of some of these reseachers is that long lived organisims have developed complex mechanisims for controlling and utilizing free radicals, "the exercise paradox" (somthing which increases toxic ROS, and has undisputed health benfits is an example often used).

Seach "Hormesis" if you are interested in some of this stuff..

A couple that i dug out :

http://www.ajcn.org/content/87/1/142.long

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2680430

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16611389/

Cheers

LMR

 

[Bazza20]

If I get time I'll try and find the studies but the good trials on antioxidant supplements have been disappointing of late.

Some I think even had antioxidants having a negative effect.

 

[Fadi]

In general i'm on the fence re antioxidants. I know this isn't a popular viewpoint, (and i'm by no means trying to be argumentative here) but some reaseachers are begining to think that free radicals actually play an important role in many processes.

No one here is disputing the fact that free radicals are an essential part of the bigger biological picture. Take for instance one of the most currently popular bodybuilding supplements, nitric oxide (NO), which is in fact a free radical, one of the most essential free radicals of all known to man. It’s not a vitamin nor a mineral, not even a polyphenol no; it’s simply a biological gas. And what a gas it is! Although it’s a free radical, its presence or manufacturing is one of the most critically essential of all for maintaining our health. So as you can see, I at least, am in no dispute with anyone when it comes to the vital role free radicals have to play in the larger scheme of things.

The problem however is this: the environment we find ourselves living in today is causing an overwhelming of free radicals. In other words, the balance is shifting in favour of free radicals and disease causing compounds. Even breathing has become dangerous and in need of some counter measure.

By the way, an antioxidant like vitamin C or E for example can themselves become free radicals when their job of being an antioxidant is done. Hence, I put up the antioxidant “players” that work to recycle an antioxidant after completing its initial task.

Finally, as I've already alluded to in my previous post re the quantity of the pre and post vitamins. The last study you've put up talks of 1000mg of vitamin C. What I was talking about based on the book I've mentioned in my earlier post (which has prompted your initial response to me) was a mere 30-120 mg of vitamin C, and 20-60IU of vitamin E. That's a far cry from 1000mg of vitamin C and 400IU of vitamin E.

So although I was recommending the taking of vitamin C & E pre and post workouts, the quantity of these were not so overwhelming as to negatively affect any insulin response, but enough to exert their anti-oxidant power in time of need.

It's unfortunate that you've chosen to ignore my PS.


Fadi.

 

[Fadi]

Some I think even had antioxidants having a negative effect.

You're right Bazza. One of those antioxidant is beta-carotene which is an amazing antioxidant... when part of its carrier food, but not when isolated as part of an antioxidant supplement.

I'm all for food when it comes to ingesting a comprehensive array of polyphenols as well as antioxidants.


Fadi.

 

[Big Mick]

Olive leaf extract.

Vitamin C
Vitamin E
CoQ10
Lipoic acid
N-Acetyl Cysteine

What form do you take these in?? And is there a supplement that incorporates most of all of these...apart from the obvious eating all the correct foods (which I think will never happen on a daily basis even with a good diet)

I have just suggested in another thread where BN asked for product requests for them to look at making a anti oxidant complex incorporating these antioxidants.

May be you can add to that thread here, as your vast knowledge could help a lot of others, like myself, who are learning as we go along but have a long way to go yet:

http://ausbb.com/bulk-nutrients/16243-new-extracts-what-would-you-like.html#post224358

 

[Fadi]

What form do you take these in?? And is there a supplement that incorporates most of all of these...apart from the obvious eating all the correct foods (which I think will never happen on a daily basis even with a good diet)

I take these individually as I have not seen one product that incorporates all together.

Mick, we're both nearly the same age. After my workout I take this: Pycnogenol Supreme. Please go to iHerb and type it in. It's by Source Naturals'. It's very comprehensive indeed and I like it because of its grape seed ingredients (apart from all the other powerful antioxidants there) which I also take individually (the garpe seed extract that is) to help with circulation especially from the lower limbs and back up to the heart. It's also an anti-aromatase (something you and I should be concerned with). It does make your blood thinner (as does CoQ10) so be aware if you're taking any anticoagulant type of medication. Also be careful as this product will make you alert. I take it at about 3am just after I finish my workout and I do notice plenty of brain activity then.


Fadi.

 

[LMR01]

No one here is disputing the fact that free radicals are an essential part of the bigger biological picture. Take for instance one of the most currently popular bodybuilding supplements, nitric oxide (NO), which is in fact a free radical, one of the most essential free radicals of all known to man. It’s not a vitamin nor a mineral, not even a polyphenol no; it’s simply a biological gas. And what a gas it is! Although it’s a free radical, its presence or manufacturing is one of the most critically essential of all for maintaining our health. So as you can see, I at least, am in no dispute with anyone when it comes to the vital role free radicals have to play in the larger scheme of things.

The problem however is this: the environment we find ourselves living in today is causing an overwhelming of free radicals. In other words, the balance is shifting in favour of free radicals and disease causing compounds. Even breathing has become dangerous and in need of some counter measure.

By the way, an antioxidant like vitamin C or E for example can themselves become free radicals when their job of being an antioxidant is done. Hence, I put up the antioxidant “players” that work to recycle an antioxidant after completing its initial task.

Finally, as I've already alluded to in my previous post re the quantity of the pre and post vitamins. The last study you've put up talks of 1000mg of vitamin C. What I was talking about based on the book I've mentioned in my earlier post (which has prompted your initial response to me) was a mere 30-120 mg of vitamin C, and 20-60IU of vitamin E. That's a far cry from 1000mg of vitamin C and 400IU of vitamin E.

So although I was recommending the taking of vitamin C & E pre and post workouts, the quantity of these were not so overwhelming as to negatively affect any insulin response, but enough to exert their anti-oxidant power in time of need.

It's unfortunate that you've chosen to ignore my PS.


Fadi.

Posted up in the intro thread as directed.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to attack your reccomendation (i was merely trying to offer an apposing viewpoint to stimulate some interesting discussion).

Some meta-analyses if anybody is interested; your point about when taken at high enough doses some anti oxidants become pro oxidants should be kept in mind when interpreting the results however.

Mortality in Randomized Trials of Antioxidant Supplements for Primary and Secondary Prevention, February 28, 2007, Bjelakovic et al. 297 (8): 842 ? JAMA

Antioxidant supplements for preve... [Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

Meta-analysis: high-dosage vitamin E suppleme... [Ann Intern Med. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Fadi]

Posted up in the intro thread as directed.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to attack your reccomendation (i was merely trying to offer an apposing viewpoint to stimulate some interesting discussion).

Thank you Leigh. I don't see you attacking and I welcome any opposing views from mine. I’m not so arrogant as to say I know everything or even remotely close to what others better educated than I am do know. I, like you, am here to share my experience as well as learn from enthusiastic and polite people such as yourself Sir. So please don’t feel that you’d need to agree with me for us to get along, okay!

Here are two small articles I found interesting Leigh on both vitamin C as well as coffee (which may have something to do with insulin resistance). I think the problem occurs when people begin to isolate ingredients as opposed to using them as part of a bigger picture. After all, our food is made up of a myriad of chemicals all working/playing together like a wonderful and powerful symphony to enhance the effectiveness of each and every player.

Coffee May Promote Insulin Resistance

Vitamin C and the Connection to Diabetes and High Blood Pressure Essential Oils… more than basic Aromatherapy


Fadi.