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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Beginners program

  1. #21
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    Okay, you guys get blinded by marketing.

    I dont know who the f u c k stronglifts is, but 5 x 5 was first introduced by Bill Starr in the late 70's. It was a very uncomplicated system, used by colleges and high school football teams.

    Wanna have a guess how much a high school or college linebacker squats?

    They are already strong.

    Now someone is cashing in on novices who love the romance and hate the work. Good luck to them, everyone should be able to make a dollar, some of that money should be channelled back to Bill.

    Lets say you've just started lifting. Someone on here was doing 5 x 5, and he was using 35kg from memory. When he went to 40kg, a weight a handful of women use at PTC, he was failing at 2-3 reps.

    A novice has not yet learned how to explode. He lifts slow, he cant draw on his fast twitch fibers, which are needed for low reps. I see this with clients every day. A girl that fails at 2 reps on 30kg does 25 reps on 20kg. Experienced lifters cant match that effort.

    Kyle, you say there are impressive results on that forum, I'll believe you, I'm not checking.

    I know Benny and Vocy did it well before 3 months. You can check the results of stronglifts and report back.

    But instead of checking out OTHERS, check your own progress. How close are you now, how long have you been lifting.

    Dave started in December, benches 105kg, squats 175kg and deadlifts 215kg, thats miles over.

    Compare your own progress on 5x5 rather than others. Dave took around 7 months because of the bench, Vocy took 2 1/2 months, Max still isnt there in 12 months.

    Everyone is different, so just worry about yourself. You should be real close in 12 months of lifting, tops. Max doesnt use his age or light bodyweight as an excuse, either you can or you cant.

    The 5x5 program has many many benefits, and I have been using it since before stronglifts owner mother was born.

    But not before I could squat 300lbs (back then). I knew I was weak until then, and I had to get strong first. I learnt this early.

    So if you are benching 100kg or squatting 140kg, by all means, do the 5x5, thats what it was intended for.

    I see no benefit in a guy totalling 500kg in the 5 lifts doing it.

    I've even got a 60yo man close to those lifts in 7 months. He will be well and truly past them in 12 months.

    Do some self appraisal, see where your at.

    I'm not saying its a crap program, I love it, but it should be for intermediates or geneticly strong lifters, its your SECOND program, not first.





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  • #22
    Active Member PTC has made a donation to the forum!

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    Okay, you guys get blinded by marketing.

    I dont know who the f u c k stronglifts is, but 5 x 5 was first introduced by Bill Starr in the late 70's. It was a very uncomplicated system, used by colleges and high school football teams.

    Wanna have a guess how much a high school or college linebacker squats?

    They are already strong.

    Now someone is cashing in on novices who love the romance and hate the work. Good luck to them, everyone should be able to make a dollar, some of that money should be channelled back to Bill.

    Lets say you've just started lifting. Someone on here was doing 5 x 5, and he was using 35kg from memory. When he went to 40kg, a weight a handful of women use at PTC, he was failing at 2-3 reps.

    A novice has not yet learned how to explode. He lifts slow, he cant draw on his fast twitch fibers, which are needed for low reps. I see this with clients every day. A girl that fails at 2 reps on 30kg does 25 reps on 20kg. Experienced lifters cant match that effort.

    Kyle, you say there are impressive results on that forum, I'll believe you, I'm not checking.

    I know Benny and Vocy did it well before 3 months. You can check the results of stronglifts and report back.

    But instead of checking out OTHERS, check your own progress. How close are you now, how long have you been lifting.

    Dave started in December, benches 105kg, squats 175kg and deadlifts 215kg, thats miles over.

    Compare your own progress on 5x5 rather than others. Dave took around 7 months because of the bench, Vocy took 2 1/2 months, Max still isnt there in 12 months.

    Everyone is different, so just worry about yourself. You should be real close in 12 months of lifting, tops. Max doesnt use his age or light bodyweight as an excuse, either you can or you cant.

    The 5x5 program has many many benefits, and I have been using it since before stronglifts owner mother was born.

    But not before I could squat 300lbs (back then). I knew I was weak until then, and I had to get strong first. I learnt this early.

    So if you are benching 100kg or squatting 140kg, by all means, do the 5x5, thats what it was intended for.

    I see no benefit in a guy totalling 500kg in the 5 lifts doing it.

    I've even got a 60yo man close to those lifts in 7 months. He will be well and truly past them in 12 months.

    Do some self appraisal, see where your at.

    I'm not saying its a crap program, I love it, but it should be for intermediates or geneticly strong lifters, its your SECOND program, not first.


  • #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PTC
    Kyle, you say there are impressive results on that forum, I'll believe you, I'm not checking.
    I didn't say they were impressive. I said they had had "some success", and that I didn't know if this was faster or slower or just different to what you're saying here, that's why I provided the link, so you could go and see and judge.

    Mehdi with his "stronglifts" is far from the only one advocating 5x5 for complete beginners. Mark Rippetoe does as well in Starting Strength, though I understand it's structured a bit differently from the Stronglifts one. You can go and tell Rippetoe he's wrong here if you like.

    Again, I wouldn't know what is ideal. I simply say that beginners have reported some success using some kind of 5x5, whether Starr's or Mehdi's or Rippetoe's or whoever. It looks to me like it's possible that there's more than one good routine for beginners. So the 5x5 programmes shouldn't surprise you - they get beginners some good results.

    I hope you'll answer the questions about goals for women, and the details of warmup, weights chosen for each set and so on.
    Last edited by Kyle Aaron; 07-10-2009 at 02:33 PM.
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  • #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PTC
    Kyle, you say there are impressive results on that forum, I'll believe you, I'm not checking.
    I didn't say they were impressive. I said they had had "some success", and that I didn't know if this was faster or slower or just different to what you're saying here, that's why I provided the link, so you could go and see and judge.

    Mehdi with his "stronglifts" is far from the only one advocating 5x5 for complete beginners. Mark Rippetoe does as well in Starting Strength, though I understand it's structured a bit differently from the Stronglifts one. You can go and tell Rippetoe he's wrong here if you like.

    Again, I wouldn't know what is ideal. I simply say that beginners have reported some success using some kind of 5x5, whether Starr's or Mehdi's or Rippetoe's or whoever. It looks to me like it's possible that there's more than one good routine for beginners. So the 5x5 programmes shouldn't surprise you - they get beginners some good results.

    I hope you'll answer the questions about goals for women, and the details of warmup, weights chosen for each set and so on.
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    I'd say the goals for women would be very roughly half that listed for men, maybe a bit more on the squat and dead. But I'm not 100% I'll let markos answer that.

    Your warm up should be your own, experiment and see what works for you. I like to do about 4-6 light warmup sets before worksets, more if I'm going for a 1rm.
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    I'd say the goals for women would be very roughly half that listed for men, maybe a bit more on the squat and dead. But I'm not 100% I'll let markos answer that.

    Your warm up should be your own, experiment and see what works for you. I like to do about 4-6 light warmup sets before worksets, more if I'm going for a 1rm.
    Bigger Faster Stronger


  • #27
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    Sorry, I forgot. As far as I'm concerned, there are no differences between women and men exercising. We all do the same at PTC, which you watched. As they move on from beginners, and have some strength, we act on goals they may have, like chins for instance. But before all that, they have to get strong.

    Now womens goals are a little different in that women dont want to gain weight, so bodyweight will definitely play a role.

    I'll use a 60kg women as an example. Bench press 50kg, squat 75kg, 100kg deadlift. These are simply approximates, make your own adjustments.

    Warm ups I leave entirely to the lifter. You've seen Vicki come in and start without me. Nina likes tiny jumps in warm ups, Max can clean 100kg cold. Everyone is different, I leave it to the lifter.

    Now, please understand I am not knocking Bill Starrs program, I love it, have followed it and used it on heaps of clients. Most recently on Dave to get his bench to 100kg.

    Dave was already well passed the 140kg squat and 180kg deadlift, but his bench was 80kg. I used 5x5 on Fridays on his ME effort day and 10X3 on his DE day. This resulted in a 105kg PB at Bash.

    All I'm saying is there is a better quicker way. You will get results from 5x5, but remember the 1000HP GTR?

    Kyle since January.
    SQ 70x5 - BP 80x5 - DL 100x5

    James since March
    SQ 100x5 -BP 80x5 - DL 140x5

    Dave since January
    SQ 160x5 - BP 95x5 - DL 190x5

    Everyone is different, but with results like these, I dont see the need to start novices on Bill Starrs program.

    Everyone should do the program they enjoy Kyle, your clearly getting results from yours, anyone can see that, simply keep doing it.

    Others are paying for a quicker ride though. Remember, I didnt invent ANY of these programs. I have no vented interest in either one.

    As a strength coach I simply have my clients do the program thats most suited to them.

    At one stage or another, every client I have will eventually do the 5x5, for a period.

    Currently I have Nina and Amanda doing GVT twice a week and my Breathing squats program once, as well as 2 cardio sessions and one weightlifting session.

    I'm not fixated on one program at a time, just the best one.

    Hope some of you get some insight.


  • #28
    Active Member PTC has made a donation to the forum!

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    Sorry, I forgot. As far as I'm concerned, there are no differences between women and men exercising. We all do the same at PTC, which you watched. As they move on from beginners, and have some strength, we act on goals they may have, like chins for instance. But before all that, they have to get strong.

    Now womens goals are a little different in that women dont want to gain weight, so bodyweight will definitely play a role.

    I'll use a 60kg women as an example. Bench press 50kg, squat 75kg, 100kg deadlift. These are simply approximates, make your own adjustments.

    Warm ups I leave entirely to the lifter. You've seen Vicki come in and start without me. Nina likes tiny jumps in warm ups, Max can clean 100kg cold. Everyone is different, I leave it to the lifter.

    Now, please understand I am not knocking Bill Starrs program, I love it, have followed it and used it on heaps of clients. Most recently on Dave to get his bench to 100kg.

    Dave was already well passed the 140kg squat and 180kg deadlift, but his bench was 80kg. I used 5x5 on Fridays on his ME effort day and 10X3 on his DE day. This resulted in a 105kg PB at Bash.

    All I'm saying is there is a better quicker way. You will get results from 5x5, but remember the 1000HP GTR?

    Kyle since January.
    SQ 70x5 - BP 80x5 - DL 100x5

    James since March
    SQ 100x5 -BP 80x5 - DL 140x5

    Dave since January
    SQ 160x5 - BP 95x5 - DL 190x5

    Everyone is different, but with results like these, I dont see the need to start novices on Bill Starrs program.

    Everyone should do the program they enjoy Kyle, your clearly getting results from yours, anyone can see that, simply keep doing it.

    Others are paying for a quicker ride though. Remember, I didnt invent ANY of these programs. I have no vented interest in either one.

    As a strength coach I simply have my clients do the program thats most suited to them.

    At one stage or another, every client I have will eventually do the 5x5, for a period.

    Currently I have Nina and Amanda doing GVT twice a week and my Breathing squats program once, as well as 2 cardio sessions and one weightlifting session.

    I'm not fixated on one program at a time, just the best one.

    Hope some of you get some insight.


  • #29
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    I see Nick had already answered while I paused to eat 2 of Ninas hot chocolate chip muffins( laughs at Nick)

    Another program I have used for STRONG clients is 5/3/1, an excellent strength program, till you adapt.

    I believe every lifters goal should be to have the body adapt to a stress as quickly as possible, then move on. Best way to get strong.

    The most productive program is the next one.


  • #30
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    I see Nick had already answered while I paused to eat 2 of Ninas hot chocolate chip muffins( laughs at Nick)

    Another program I have used for STRONG clients is 5/3/1, an excellent strength program, till you adapt.

    I believe every lifters goal should be to have the body adapt to a stress as quickly as possible, then move on. Best way to get strong.

    The most productive program is the next one.


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