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Fadi

...
Have you been trying to add some pure muscle onto your frame to justify the effort you’ve been putting into training and eating? If so, and you have not been too satisfied with the current outcome of your progress, then read on to find out my 6 tips that would have you muscle gaining in no time.

1.
You need to insure that you’re ingesting no less than 30g per meal of a 1[SUP]st[/SUP]class protein source.

2.
You need to insure that within that meal, there is no less than 3g of the amino acid leucine present.

3.
You need not eat every 2 to 3 hours, but insure that 4 hours have elapsed before you ingest your next protein meal as above.

4.
You need to create the proper environment for your body to utilise this protein and synthesise it into new muscle by training, using one or more of this three primary factors that would stimulate muscle hypertrophy:

A)
Muscle damage
B) Mechanical tension
C) Metabolic stress

5.
You need to be consistent and mentally focused on achieving your goal.

6. Overtraining or under-recovering? Thanks to brother "LateStarter", I've decided to add one more tip to the 5 above, as he reminded me of sleep :)/recovery.


Granted we need to expand on each of the points I’ve included above, however since I wanted this to be a very brief outline or pointers if you like, I thought I’d leave the “meat and potatoes” of what to come for a member’s discussion, with everyone having their own input in order for all of us to come together in creating one hell of a base post for optimal muscle growth.


I realise that there’d be some of you who might not be interested in this topic for whatever reason, however the way I see it, if you are content to thrive in the intermediate zone for the rest of your lifting journey then so be it. If on the other hand you wish to move beyond that zone by paying closer attention to details; details that directly affect the outcome of the efforts you’re putting in, then I’d say you ought to join in the “party” and contribute with your own unique inputs into this thread, our thread…, Ausbb’s let’s get muscular thread!


Over to you…


Questions are welcomed.
 
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How many gram of protein required to breakdown into 3g Leucine?
Any meat with > 30g protein will do?

Also carbs/fat with the protein - is it true we need an energy source to put the protein to use in building/repairing? Or can it take the energy from the body's stores?
 
Layne-Norton-Protein-Graph.png


http://spotmebro.com/layne-norton-phd-on-protein-how-much-and-how-often/
 
How many gram of protein required to breakdown into 3g Leucine?
Any meat with > 30g protein will do??
That questions has been answered by brother Repacked, so I'll take the next one.

Also carbs/fat with the protein - is it true we need an energy source to put the protein to use in building/repairing? Or can it take the energy from the body's stores?
Both. Look at an egg, a near perfect food. Its 1st class protein comes with plenty of fats and cholesterol. You simply can't get better than that in one small package of an incredible food that is the egg. I read in your intro that your aim is body recompositioning. To do that, you may need to take an even closer look at the ratio of your macros, with protein being on the high and carb on the low, with medium amounts coming from fats, preferably wholesome fats. By wholesome fats I mean no naked, not a fat that has been detached from its original source. Granted we may have some butter, olive oil and such, but on a whole, it would be wiser to take in full cream milk instead of skim milk and cream for example.

Increasing your protein and decreasing your carbohydrates would put you in a better position to maintaining muscle mass whilst losing /using fat stores for energy. We're not talking about nutritional ketosis here, just a reduction in your overall carbohydrate to a level where you're meeting your energy needs, whilst at the same time tapping into your stored energy from fats.

 
Also wasn't the whole meal timing thing pretty much thrown out the window? And just seems to be more along the lines of if it feels good, do it
Which one are you referring to StrungOut, the so called "window of opportunity" that says you've got to consume something ASAP post workout, or the new and latest research that talks about meal spacing based on the level of the amino acid Leucine in your system? They are two different topics, just wondering which one you were referring to or are interested in in particular sir? Thank you.
 
Just want to add to this, that them weights in grams for the meat amount etc seem to be cooked weight just FYI, not directed at you FudgePacker, just anyone else who comes by here.

Also wasn't the whole meal timing thing pretty much thrown out the window? And just seems to be more along the lines of if it feels good, do it

That is correct. Also, in case my assumption that people may read the article and have a little nous is incorrect, the 'total protein' column refers to the percentage of protein that is leucine; e.g. 133g of cooked beef yielding 40g of protein @ 8% leucine will give you 3.2g of leucine. This affirms Fadi's earlier post that around 30g of 'first class' or complete protein from the relevant source will yield (approximately) 3g of leucine.
 
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Here is the Leucine threshold if anyone's interested.

hqZHvFj[1].jpg

As you can see from the above, 3g is the sweet spot for best bang for your muscle protein synthesis (MPS). To eat less than that in protein (and Leucine) is to simply add calories instead of a trigger response to MPS. Also, and on a different level, if you were to eat (say) within 2-3 hours of your previous meal, you will also miss out on that MPS response, as I have alluded to post #6 above, the Leucine content has to come down before another MPS response is initiated, hence I said before it's best not to eat before a 4 hour time period has elapsed.

The above details may seem so small, but it's usually a lot of small little details that go to make up the whole.

PS: someone my age (50) or 40+, may want to add 30% to that 3g of Leucine in order to take age and the way our body responds to amino acids into full consideration. So for me, that 3g becomes 4g. And hence, the amount of protein consumed would naturally be greater than someone younger than I trying to achieve the same thing.
 
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I just had a WPI drink made up of the following:

Milk 333g = 10.5g protein, 1g Leucine
WPI 33g = 30g protein, 3.5g Leucine
Total Protein = 40g
Total Leucine = 4.5g

Total breakdown of the above drink is as follows:

Protein = 40.5g, calories = 162....50%
Carbs = 16.5g, calories = 66.......20%
Fats = 10.5, calories = 94.5.........30%
Total calories = 322.5
 
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Which one are you referring to StrungOut, the so called "window of opportunity" that says you've got to consume something ASAP post workout, or the new and latest research that talks about meal spacing based on the level of the amino acid Leucine in your system? They are two different topics, just wondering which one you were referring to or are interested in in particular sir? Thank you.

Sorry mate, I wasn't too clear. Talking about the second one, meal spacing based on level of Leucine.
x amount of protein every so often, basically the 6 meals per day vs 3 etc
 
Sorry mate, I wasn't too clear. Talking about the second one, meal spacing based on level of Leucine.
x amount of protein every so often, basically the 6 meals per day vs 3 etc
Sure, the clear message from the latest studies is you do not want to fall into that old paranoia trap where you start to panic if you don't ingest something within 2-3 hours post previous meal. To do so would not give the optimal MPS, and therefore your actions would not be allowing the amino acid Leucine to shine and do its outmost best for you.

Some might say but hey man, I'm like hungry, I need to eat something. Well, if one was following a high protein daily meal plan, one would not get hungry, as protein is king when it comes to given us that satiety sensation, instead of that other one some call the craving sensation. High carbohydrates would make you crave, not so with protein.

Your meals ought to be say around 4 per day, or 5 if need be and you need more spacing out (still with a meal every 4 hours), starting say at 8am and finishing at midnight. Or 4 meals a day, with a bit more protein in them (depending on your bodyweight/goal etc.), and this way you do what I'm doing, starting around 3pm with the first meal (due to my shift work), and finishing 12 hours later with meal number 4 at 3am.
 

Here's the 1st part, I hope you enjoy it and benefit from it enough so as to be driven to watch the whole lecture. All the best to everyone here.
 
That questions has been answered by brother Repacked, so I'll take the next one.

Both. Look at an egg, a near perfect food. Its 1st class protein comes with plenty of fats and cholesterol. You simply can't get better than that in one small package of an incredible food that is the egg. I read in your intro that your aim is body recompositioning. To do that, you may need to take an even closer look at the ratio of your macros, with protein being on the high and carb on the low, with medium amounts coming from fats, preferably wholesome fats. By wholesome fats I mean no naked, not a fat that has been detached from its original source. Granted we may have some butter, olive oil and such, but on a whole, it would be wiser to take in full cream milk instead of skim milk and cream for example.

Increasing your protein and decreasing your carbohydrates would put you in a better position to maintaining muscle mass whilst losing /using fat stores for energy. We're not talking about nutritional ketosis here, just a reduction in your overall carbohydrate to a level where you're meeting your energy needs, whilst at the same time tapping into your stored energy from fats.

Thanks, that affirms what I'm doing (currently 50% of diet from Protein).
Fat mostly comes from egg yolks, extra lean beef and chicken breast, and a bit of coconut oil to cook with.

However I had read elsewhere, that the energy source preferred for building muscle from protein is the energy from carbs.
Are you saying that ANY calorie can work as an energy source to build/repair muscle and it doesn't matter where from as long as you consume some type of calorie along with your protein?

Also what is the effect of consuming a water+whey isolate shake? Will it do nothing in the absense of additional calories? Or can it still cause protein synthesis and muscle repair after a workout?
I see everyone adding carbs to their shakes.. even on a recomp or a cut..
 
Thanks, that affirms what I'm doing (currently 50% of diet from Protein).
Fat mostly comes from egg yolks, extra lean beef and chicken breast, and a bit of coconut oil to cook with.

However I had read elsewhere, that the energy source preferred for building muscle from protein is the energy from carbs.
Are you saying that ANY calorie can work as an energy source to build/repair muscle and it doesn't matter where from as long as you consume some type of calorie along with your protein?

Also what is the effect of consuming a water+whey isolate shake? Will it do nothing in the absense of additional calories? Or can it still cause protein synthesis and muscle repair after a workout?
I see everyone adding carbs to their shakes.. even on a recomp or a cut..
You've raised more than one point, how about we take one by one shall we? First of all, I wouldn't concern myself with the percentage of protein, but instead, the amount of protein (first and foremost) per meal, and then per day. Of course there are valid reasons to what I've just shared with you, and it all comes back to MPS.

However I had read elsewhere, that the energy source preferred for building muscle from protein is the energy from carbs.
OK, I hope you don't think I'm saying no to carbs, and hey guys, nutritional ketosis is king, because I am not. I thought I'd clarify that just in case.
Are you saying that ANY calorie can work as an energy source to build/repair muscle and it doesn't matter where from as long as you consume some type of calorie along with your protein?
Did I say that? In any case, now that you've mentioned it, I've said on this forum previously that one does not need carbohydrates, but rather glucose for energy, there's a difference. But that would be taking this discussion into a totally different direction now, and I'd rather focus on what we're discussing.

I see everyone adding carbs to their shakes.. even on a recomp or a cut..
I hear you, we need to look at the big picture rather than simply generalising, that's the first point. The second point is, who said you can not aim for body recompositioning unless you go zero or near zero carbs?

Also what is the effect of consuming a water+whey isolate shake? Will it do nothing in the absense of additional calories? Or can it still cause protein synthesis and muscle repair after a workout?
I'm after optimal and not just good. Hence I have full cream milk with my WPI instead of pure water (which would still create MPS by the way), but the bit of carbs in milk would take it to the next level..., plus it tastes much better, and I like good tasting drinks/foods, not to mention, it would make the whole drink a complete drink with all the vitamins and minerals (as nature intended for optimal nutrients absorption/utilisation).
 
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I hear you, we need to look at the big picture rather than simply generalising, that's the first point. The second point is, who said you can not aim for body recompositioning unless you go zero or near zero carbs?

Hi Fadi - I'm not saying this at all. I should have been more clear but I'm specifically asking about a single meal and it's composition. i.e. when surpassing the leucine threshold, is it better to have glucose energy with that meal or can it be any kind of calorie. I've been told by others that calories build muscle, and that protein is just the building block, the protein won't do anything without the calories. But the same people also say carbs (glucose) > fats for this purpose.

In no way have I suggested you said zero carbs. Just putting this question out there to see how important other calories (and their type) are for using this protein. From your examples, I can take away that you're all for whole balanced foods and I can only agree.

Back to my question on the case of the water + whey protein shake. If a protein only meal does start MPS - is MPS enough for muscle growth on it's own? or do we need calories to fuel the MPS. I can probably answer my own question here, by hypothesising that if we don't eat the calories needed - the body will take them anyway from itself (the liver stores, fat stores etc).

In any case - this thread is a good one and your 5 points are a good step towards optimising things. I would say #6 for me would be quality sleep - of which I'm off to get my 7 hours right now :cool:
 
I think you're overthinking it. Hit your protein macros and I guarantee you would have consumed enough Leucine.
 
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Hi Fadi - I'm not saying this at all. I should have been more clear but I'm specifically asking about a single meal and it's composition. i.e. when surpassing the leucine threshold, is it better to have glucose energy with that meal or can it be any kind of calorie.
It's all good mate, we're having a fruitful, mature, and respectful discussion here, and that's what ultimately matters. As for calories, well there's only three types, we've covered protein, now we've got the carb and fats to go. One can do a one to one ratio between carb and protein, with the remainder coming from fats, or if one (after insuring his protein intake has been covered), knows he needs less carbs due to:

1. Age
2. Insulin sensitivity/resistance
3. Activity level
4. Current LBM to fat ratio
5. The response one gets/feels after consuming calories from either fats or carbs

So as you can see, it's not a clear cut answer that usually everyone so readily dishes out. I'm 50, you may be 25, we're worlds apart as far as the way our bodies handle and deals with the macronutrients, not to mention our activities' level (or lack thereof).


I've been told by others that calories build muscle, ...
Perhaps, but paramount above all else is your workout, for without it, calories would build (or excess calories) would mainly build adipose tissue/fat. I know, I'm being very analytical with my answers to you, perhaps it's the mood I'm in right now, I hope that doesn't bother you OK :)

...and that protein is just the building block, the protein won't do anything without the calories.
It's not really a case of whether protein is just this or that, or whether it can only do this or the other with/without calories. Our first and foremost concern is much greater than all of this (perhaps trivial in comparison) because it's about life itself! What, what am I on about now huh? Well, show me one single human being in the history of our existence that has survived on nothing but protein? That person does not exist (and can never exist). In other words whoever brings up this sort of argument is (and has) totally missed the point. When you (or they) say that protein is just the building block etc. Without that "just", you and I would not be here. "They" have gravely underestimated this sole building block, granted it needs calories from either the other macros, but all the fats and the carbs in the world won't build an atom worth of muscle without protein. Just thought I'd put this issue into its proper context.

But the same people also say carbs (glucose) > fats for this purpose.
Don't understand what you mean here, would you mind clarifying please? Thank you.

In no way have I suggested you said zero carbs. Just putting this question out there to see how important other calories (and their type) are for using this protein. From your examples, I can take away that you're all for whole balanced foods and I can only agree.
Not a problem. Just keep in mind (as I've mentioned above), that different ratios of the macros serve different purposes, in addition to the taking the overall picture (and goal) into one's consideration..., age, level of fat, health condition etc. etc.

Back to my question on the case of the water + whey protein shake. If a protein only meal does start MPS - is MPS enough for muscle growth on it's own?
Mmm, MPS is muscle growth. MPS stands for Muscle Protein Synthesis, i.e. muscle growth. Sorry, I'm a bit confused with the question, however you're welcome to calcify it.

...or do we need calories to fuel the MPS.
We need calories to work with the MPS's primer, the amino acid Leucine, and all his mates (the other amino acids) that make one building team we call protein.

I can probably answer my own question here, by hypothesising that if we don't eat the calories needed - the body will take them anyway from itself (the liver stores, fat stores etc).
Good point, but it all depends on the amount of protein consumed. If you're in a caloric deficit, but your protein consumption is high (instead of normal or average), then your ability to lose more fat and preserve more muscle tissue is much greater than if your protein was not high. If you notice bodybuilders going on their 6 to 8 weeks diets pre contest, they would usually maintain (or increase) their level of protein, whilst curbing their carbohydrates slowly, and using fats to stabilise insulin levels amongst other things. To eat plenty (or enough) carbohydrates whilst aiming to lose or tap into your body fat reserves, won't happen unless the body is coaxed into doing so, since it loves holding onto its fat reserves for its own survival..., even though you're thinking muscles and competition etc., your body is thinking survival and not starvation, hence I used the verb to "coax" instead of some other verb to describe the scenario between mind (you) and body (other, in this context).

In any case - this thread is a good one and your 5 points are a good step towards optimising things. I would say #6 for me would be quality sleep - of which I'm off to get my 7 hours right now :cool:
Hahaha , Ok my friend, pleasant dreams :D!
 
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It's all good mate, we're having a fruitful, mature, and respectful discussion here, and that's what ultimately matters. As for calories, well there's only three types, we've covered protein, now we've got the carb and fats to go. One can do a one to one ratio between carb and protein, with the remainder coming from fats, or if one (after insuring his protein intake has been covered), knows he needs less carbs due to:

1. Age
2. Insulin sensitivity/resistance
3. Activity level
4. Current LBM to fat ratio
5. The response one gets/feels after consuming calories from either fats or carbs

So as you can see, it's not a clear cut answer that usually everyone so readily dishes out. I'm 50, you may be 25, we're worlds apart as far as the way our bodies handle and deals with the macronutrients, not to mention our activities' level (or lack thereof).


Perhaps, but paramount above all else is your workout, for without it, calories would build (or excess calories) would mainly build adipose tissue/fat. I know, I'm being very analytical with my answers to you, perhaps it's the mood I'm in right now, I hope that doesn't bother you OK :)

It's not really a case of whether protein is just this or that, or whether it can only do this or the other with/without calories. Our first and foremost concern is much greater than all of this (perhaps trivial in comparison) because it's about life itself! What, what am I on about now huh? Well, show me one single human being in the history of our existence that has survived on nothing but protein? That person does not exist (and can never exist). In other words whoever brings up this sort of argument is (and has) totally missed the point. When you (or they) say that protein is just the building block etc. Without that "just", you and I would not be here. "They" have gravely underestimated this sole building block, granted it needs calories from either the other macros, but all the fats and the carbs in the world won't build an atom worth of muscle without protein. Just thought I'd put this issue into its proper context.

Don't understand what you mean here, would you mind clarifying please? Thank you.

Not a problem. Just keep in mind (as I've mentioned above), that different ratios of the macros serve different purposes, in addition to the taking the overall picture (and goal) into one's consideration..., age, level of fat, health condition etc. etc.

Mmm, MPS is muscle growth. MPS stands for Muscle Protein Synthesis, i.e. muscle growth. Sorry, I'm a bit confused with the question, however you're welcome to calcify it.

We need calories to work with the MPS's primer, the amino acid Leucine, and all his mates (the other amino acids) that make one building team we call protein.

Good point, but it all depends on the amount of protein consumed. If you're in a caloric deficit, but your protein consumption is high (instead of normal or average), then your ability to lose more fat and preserve more muscle tissue is much greater than if your protein was not high. If you notice bodybuilders going on their 6 to 8 weeks diets pre contest, they would usually maintain (or increase) their level of protein, whilst curbing their carbohydrates slowly, and using fats to stabilise insulin levels amongst other things. To eat plenty (or enough) carbohydrates whilst aiming to lose or tap into your body fat reserves, won't happen unless the body is coaxed into doing so, since it loves holding onto its fat reserves for its own survival..., even though you're thinking muscles and competition etc., your body is thinking survival and not starvation, hence I used the verb to "coax" instead of some other verb to describe the scenario between mind (you) and body (other, in this context).

Hahaha , Ok my friend, pleasant dreams :D!

Thanks Fadi, interesting stuff I'll take it on board
 
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