Jungnaut needs help with Diet Plan (critique please)

Jungnaut said:

Thanks @steveP ; and @Davepuppies ; I shall take those points on board for sure. I think it would be quite easy for me to reduce fat and carbs, in that order, progressively. This myfitnesspal app is simply amazing.

One point that concerns me though. And since you guys have done this before, let me ask.. is there a direct relationship between massive calorie deficits and muscle catabolism? Or is it the macros that matter. I am prepared for my strength gains to take a hit, but I want to do everything I can to protect my lean muscle mass.. so I don't end up looking like a malnourished third world child lol..

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Any Fat loss will typically come with a small amount of muscle loss..... Without gear. The bigger the deficit, the bigger the chance of muscle loss. I would have thought eating 3700 calories with 60-70kg FFM would have been a decent surplus.

things I do to help...... Keep protein relativley high, BCAA (not that many are a big fan of these on this forum) and cycle your calories and macros. Don't make every day a huge defecit.

As Dave said, when in a deficit, it's just inevitable that there will be some muscle catabolism. But it will depend on how aggressive your cut is. What I recommended is quite reasonable and should not result in any noticeable loss in strength.

When I did the Max's challenge last year, I didn't notice any strength loss until I got into single digit body fat %, was on 1600 calories a day and training 7 days a week. If you reduce to 2700 calories a day, that's still a lot of calories to play around with to keep lean muscle mass.

In terms of macros, I would increase protein a bit. For example, my maintenance calories are p45/c30/f25. When on a cut, the protein macro will be closer to 60%. I achieve this by ensuring I consume at least one serving of BCAAs a day and a casein protein shake at night.

I think you'll be surprised at how your strength levels will maintain in a calorie deficit.

You don't need casein protein at night. The protein you had earlier is still in your system. Supplement company hype to sell more protein.
You won't go catabolic over night.

No one said that. I suggested casein as another option to increase protein intake. Can be made into a custard for dessert.

Casein is a good option even if mixing 50/50 with WPC, not the whole bed time type stuff but more so it is filling.

Along the lines of the whole losing muscle mass, I believe the calorie deficit can be more than what everyone believes.
I don't mind this little table as a good guideline, this uses the 1lb is roughly -3500 calories a week

steveP said:

If you reduce to 2700 calories a day, that's still a lot of calories to play around with to keep lean muscle mass.

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2700 will be a challenge right now, because I have trained myself to eat lots and the serving sizes I am now measuring out is even less than what my parents would eat lol.

Along those same lines, is that the reason why you recommended reducing intake by 250 kcal steps rather than go for a bigger jump? Is it more of a mental thing or are there physical/physiological benefits to this.

StrungOut said:

this uses the 1lb is roughly -3500 calories a week

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So if I wanna go to 12% I got to take off 3500 x 1.3 = 4550 kcal per week off my BMR? Or what is the meaning of that table.

Jungnaut said:

Along those same lines, is that the reason why you recommended reducing intake by 250 kcal steps rather than go for a bigger jump? Is it more of a mental thing or are there physical/physiological benefits to this.

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Like what was said in an earlier post, the more aggressive the cut, the bigger the potential to lose lean muscle mass. By stepping it down over 4 weeks instead of one massive calorie deficit, your body has time to adapt to the change in calories. If you just cut out 1000 calories tomorrow, you will lose weight, but eventually your fat loss will plateau. Your body reaches homeostasis and to lose further fat, you either have to reduce your calories again by a large amount or do a large amount of cardio.

Cutting calories and doing cardio gradually lets your body adapt and not slow down/wreck your metabolism.

Sorry mate didn't explain the table. The bf% you are at now is how much you should be able to lose while retaining lbm.
Eg if you are 12% then 1.3x3500 is the estimated deficit.
3500 is also where you read about the suggested -500cal per day as a starting point comes from

Minimise muscle loss by increasing fat intake, here’s why…

Your fat intake ought to be high, (yes, high whilst on a cutting cycle).You never want to be on a low fat macro whilst in a calorie deficit, or your protein macros would be used for fuel through gluconeogenesis, and your muscle would also be targeted for breakdown in order for their amino acids to be used as an energy substrate.

By ingesting a high fat macro with a medium protein and low carb, you would ensure the release of your excess fat storage by the action of the hormone glucagon. If insulin is king in storage, then glucagon is king in releasing what has been stored. If you can't first release it, you would have no hope in later burning it.

So a moderate / adequate protein intake, with a high fat intake, would insure insulin, (your storage hormone) is kept at bay (under control/stabilised with no room for spiking), and would therefore enable insulin's antagonist hormone glucagon to free up your fatty acids to be utilized for energy. Some may disagree, opting for a high protein whilst in a calorie deficit instead. I say, by doing so , you would limit your fat release, and end up breaking down more hard earned muscles than would have been necessary. We all know what occurs when we break down our muscles and shift our body composition in favour of fat,...our metabolism begins to slow down, slapping us with a big fat sign that reads: halt the loss of fat (and conserve it for energy to be used as a last resort) after muscle breakdown. Result? A much smaller bodybuilder on stage than he has anticipated to be.

That was some of the "why" things turn out the way they do, when your plan was something totally different.

What high fat foods are we talking, nuts, salmon, avocado, etc?

Mickey Blue eyes said:

What high fat foods are we talking, nuts, salmon, avocado, etc?

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Bravo, everything you've mentioned is 100% whole food that has a high percentage of its calories derived from fats, good wholesome intact lipids, as opposed to the naked form of fats I've written about here before. The more wholesome and intact the fat, the better for your overall health it would be. Don't shy away from high cholesterol foods either, as high fats, even the highest of them all when it comes to its content of saturated fats, has zero cholesterol within it. Of course, I'm refereeing to none other but the mighty coconut. So eggs (from a trusted source), as well as prawns and liver (again, from a trusted source), are not high in fat (apart from the eggs), but very high in cholesterol. Butter, the West gold brand from New Zealand is king here, with its adequate amount of that essential vitamin that could one day save you from suffering a heart attack (in the way it functions in our body). I'm referring to vitamin k2 of course. The more milk / dairy and calcium you have, the higher your chance of suffering with a heart attack or hardening of the arteries later on in life, if, if you don't insure an adequate supply of that fat soluble vitamin. Vitamin D3 puts your calcium out there in your blood stream, but it's vitamin k2 that deals with its transport to the right places instead of having all that calcium being deposited into your arteries. If I had my way, I would render all fat free dairy product illegal to manufacture. The lower the fat, the higher the incidence of arthrosclerosis.

I've digressed I know, but coming back to your point, stick with wholesome fats that are still part of the food they've come from, and stay away from all vegetable oils on the shelves bar one, the cold pressed extra virgin olive oil, macadamia, and avocado oils (if you must have some sort of oil that is). It goes without saying of course that margarine in all its shape and forms should not step its ugly head into your home....irrespective what the label has to say on it, or even if it has that dodgy heart tick of approval! That rubbish is nothing more than plenty of man made hydrogenated fats, dressed up in a nice package with deceiving labels to match.

I will tangent the thread but Fadi what's you view on rice bran oil.

Mickey Blue eyes said:

I will tangent the thread but Fadi what's you view on rice bran oil.

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Ok Mickey, since we're dealing with a naked oil, one of two fundamental questions would be: a) what is the fatty acids composition of the oil in question, and b) how was it extracted? And possibly a 3rd question might give you a hint whether you should buy that oil or not is: what was it made for? By that I mean, was it made especially for frying, or simply to drizzle on your salad or other food ingredients? I'm not here to bash rice bran oil (or any other oil for that matter), nor I am here to hype up some oil and go over the top with how wonderful it is for your taste buds and your health.

Rice bran oil's fatty composition is very similar to both sesame seed oil and cotton seed oil. Not too high in mono and not too high in poly. Great, so why do the Asians prefer it for their stir fries then? Because it has high smoking point, well naturally! Ah wait, why a high smoking point? Because it has been processed to the extreme, that's why! You see Mickey, it's no magic, a fat can only have a high smoking point when either it is highly saturated, or highly processed. We both know now, that rice bran oil is only around 20% or so saturated, so what gives? Again, the processing of it. Yes, it's been touted as being so unique amongst all oils (and rightly so mind you) in that it has two compounds called oryzanol and tocotrienols. OK great, would the benefits and advantage of having these two compounds offset the extraction method that this oil had to endure? Let's see what we're up against here, and hopefully this bit of info would help you make up your own mind Sir. A copy and paste in the next paragraph should tell the story.

"Following is a description of how they do it;

The oil extracted from rice bran goes rancid quickly. Unlike some other oils, it is not cold-pressed. To refine it, a solvent is used to extract the oil from the germ which is later evaporated off (and tested post-production for residual solvents to double check for traces). That's followed by neutralisation, bleaching, winterisation and de-odourisation steps, as with most other oils. the rice bran oil is subjected to high temperatures during the extraction phase prior to the filtration. This creates refined and stabilized oil, bringing about a long shelf life and high smoke point. However, what you lose is the "naturalness" of the oil. Rice bran oil's ingredient list appears straightforward with no additives but it's not as ‘natural' as you would think. The term ‘extra-cold filtered' is a little confusing. and not to be confused with ‘extra-cold pressed', a well-known method of producing extra-virgin olive oil."

Mickey, what was written above could have been written about most oils you see on the shelves, dressing up our supermarket shelves with their pro-inflammatory fatty acids. It all boils down to what you wish to use the oil for? If to drizzle on a salad, then there are better / healthier choices. If for frying (once in a blue moon), then go ahead and use it, or any other highly processed oil. If you constantly fry your food, then I'd recommend the good old fashion way before all these polyunsaturated oils, or highly processed mono-unsaturated oils made it onto our supermarket shelves, that is, make use of what is highly stable, naturally: a saturated fat.

Cheers Fadi,, I always look forward to your replies.

Fadi, do you like coconut oil?

i have alway used it due to its MCT structure, and lauric and caprilic acid components for gut health.

thoughts?

Davepuppies said:

Fadi, do you like coconut oil?

i have alway used it due to its MCT structure, and lauric and caprilic acid components for gut health.

thoughts?

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Hey Dave,

I can not but like it my friend. How can I say no when it's 100% natural. Yes, I would prefer to eat coconuts, the same way I would avocado and olives. However form a stability point of view, the coconut fatty acids with its highly stable saturated fats simply rocks. And a further yes to its special and unique profile of fatty acids such as the mighty lauric acid etc. Now coming to MCT oil, I remember the day this product made it into some bodybuilding magazines back in the early to mid 80s. I believe it was a guru, nutritionist, or the like by the name of John Parrillo who started the whole thing, or at least was the main drive behind it over 30 years ago. Would I recommend it from a health point of view? Absolutely not! Would I recommend it from a drug/performance point of view? Most likely if you can handle it. The reason should be obvious Dave. The more processed a product is, the more drug like it becomes, period! Without going any further, I just wish to make it amply clear that just because we apply the word 'drug" to a certain product, does not automatically render or make that product bad or harmful. Is aspirin a drug? Yes. Is it harmful? It can be. Is it helpful? It can be. So is MCT.

So a week and a half into this and I have lost 0.5 kg. I hope most of that is fat and water . Thanks to the input of youse, there are plenty of great tips here and I have learnt heaps reading it. The main changes I have made so far are:

• - Reduced fat by cutting out visible fat in meat and skimming layer of oil off casseroles.
• - Ensure only cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil/olive oil is used for all my cooking. Or Ghee if its a spicy dish.
• - Reduced consumption of dairy by heaps. I instantly have less bloat - maybe I have a higher lactose intolerance than I first thought!
• - Reduced BMR to 2640 as per my new calculations, and only adding 500 kcal to that for each hour of weight training that I do.
• - Cycle my intake of carbs by having most of my carbs around my training. Most in the form of vegies, some rice, hardly any wheat/bread.
• - Slowly increased cardio and will ramp it up once I get my mountain bike fixed this week.

Tracking my intake with my fitness pal is such a no-brainer, anyone thinking about weight management should be using it imo. It takes the guesswork out of everything!

Now, for the past 2 days I have been on a super deficit so I can eat happily the next two days. Since I'm deloading now so I don't need to carb cycle or worry about nutrient timing. I feel a bit flat though right now, hardly any energy so I'm going to cook a chicken after this and devour the daylights out of it.

My crazy super deficit regimen from yesterday:

Brekky: 2 scoops WPI, Creatine, 1 cup Milk, walnuts, cocoa nibs, chia seeds, LSA, teaspoon coffee, 150mg L-theanine (green tea extracted), BN's greens powder
Calories: 848, Protein: 77, Carbs: 45, Fat: 35

Lunch: 150 grams rice, beef and vegie casserole, salad+sprouts
Calories: 774, Protein: 76, Carbs: 72, Fat: 18

Dinner: 2 Scoops WPI, 2 Cups Milk
Calories: 420, Protein: 23, Carbs: 53, Fat: 11

Totals: Calories: 2105, Protein: 211, Carbs: 142, Fats: 70

Pretty sure rice is 80g carbs per 100g
If you feel flat eat a few rice cakes while you train and drink plenty of water
For some reason this always gives me brutal pumps, especially arms and if you get the timing right you don't need to worry about the extra calories

0ni said:

Pretty sure rice is 80g carbs per 100g

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Some rice has as low as 23g/100 cooked.

Jungnaut said:

So a week and a half into this and I have lost 0.5 kg. I hope most of that is fat and water . Thanks to the input of youse, there are plenty of great tips here and I have learnt heaps reading it. The main changes I have made so far are:

• - Reduced fat by cutting out visible fat in meat and skimming layer of oil off casseroles.
• - Ensure only cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil/olive oil is used for all my cooking. Or Ghee if its a spicy dish.
• - Reduced consumption of dairy by heaps. I instantly have less bloat - maybe I have a higher lactose intolerance than I first thought!
• - Reduced BMR to 2640 as per my new calculations, and only adding 500 kcal to that for each hour of weight training that I do.
• - Cycle my intake of carbs by having most of my carbs around my training. Most in the form of vegies, some rice, hardly any wheat/bread.
• - Slowly increased cardio and will ramp it up once I get my mountain bike fixed this week.

Tracking my intake with my fitness pal is such a no-brainer, anyone thinking about weight management should be using it imo. It takes the guesswork out of everything!

Now, for the past 2 days I have been on a super deficit so I can eat happily the next two days. Since I'm deloading now so I don't need to carb cycle or worry about nutrient timing. I feel a bit flat though right now, hardly any energy so I'm going to cook a chicken after this and devour the daylights out of it.

My crazy super deficit regimen from yesterday:

Brekky: 2 scoops WPI, Creatine, 1 cup Milk, walnuts, cocoa nibs, chia seeds, LSA, teaspoon coffee, 150mg L-theanine (green tea extracted), BN's greens powder
Calories: 848, Protein: 77, Carbs: 45, Fat: 35

Lunch: 150 grams rice, beef and vegie casserole, salad+sprouts
Calories: 774, Protein: 76, Carbs: 72, Fat: 18

Dinner: 2 Scoops WPI, 2 Cups Milk
Calories: 420, Protein: 23, Carbs: 53, Fat: 11

Totals: Calories: 2105, Protein: 211, Carbs: 142, Fats: 70

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Two points:

1. You said you felt better after reducing your dairy due to lactose. The milk that you are currently drinking, is it of the lactose free kind Jungnaut?

2. Always take into account who is giving you advice or making a suggestion to you. Do they use steroids or are they 100% natural. Do they use certain supplements that may have affected their results one way or the other or do they simply eat food? By following such guidelines, you would be met with much less disappointments along the way.