idea of drug tested gyms

spartacus said:

Yes, I wish there was no illegal PED use now, but not naive enough to suggest that the system will ever be perfect or will stop everyone cheating.

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There is no "cheating" in personal physical development, only in competitive activities.

spartacus said:

of course, there is a degree of coercion through smiley faces; it is called smart public policy.

People still have choice though.

I wouldn't worry too much; doubt anything would happen in Australia, a country well behind best practice. They just think they lead the world.

Darkoz, but policy is being proven successful, so how is the body useless?

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"Smart public policy" in this sense is another way of saying "get the masses to do what we think is right rather than presenting them with objective information and allowing them to form a factually-based position rather than an emotional opinion one.

"Best practice" is too often code for "I have a new idea and can't sell it on its merits so I'll pretend that everyone else is just behind the curve so they'll ignore the fact that new=/=better" People have been having new ideas for a very long time. Lots of them are really, really bad. Sometimes, uptake of a new idea is simply because it's not deemed to be effective.

Can you support the claim that Denmark's program has been successful or that ridding the world of personal PED use is something that substantially benefits the public?

Anyway, that's me done; might leave the arguments for the regulars.

Lutrin, I merely asked people's opinions.

Do I support the scheme? Absolutely, but you guys don't. It has worked in Denmark, so perhaps it can work here. Time will tell.

maybe you guys are more logical than me, but I have to have faith in my opinion. I urge more measures to stop PED use.

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That's fair enough, I'd just hope that anyone attempting to advise public policy would attempt to be as logical and objective as possible.

I never have faith in my opinions; I constantly test them against new information and perspectives and alter them when I find them to be flawed.

ok, the International Journal will hopefully agree I am being logical and objective with my argument. I merely try my best in accordance to my effort and ability. I also try to take note of all opinions, that is why I asked.

Again, article highlights govt policy failure, powerlifting and drugs, in accordance to policy set in 1990. At the end, it merely highlights a few more proactive national examples.

here is 2012 data, it shows a higher proportion of people in gyms being caught, so I suppose it comes down to fair rules for all, not just elites being tested.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2F131.253.14.66%2Fproxy.ashx%3Fh%3DoiHH38LjVxbixsqCgL8r-xmm06kEmCKb%26a%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.antidoping.dk%252Fdopingkontrol_i_danmark%252Fstatistik%252Fstatistik_2012


2011 data

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/...ingkontrol_i_danmark/statistik/statistik_2011

spartacus said:

yep, the state should just get out of the way and let everyone take whatever they want. Is that what you are saying Warby?
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No, I was clarifying the difference between workplace d&a testing and your suggestion.

I think the state should focus on things with a genuine proven benefit health, safety, economy, community, etc - drug testing gym users achieves nothing but enforcing a moral code that "drugs are bad mmmkay." If you want to increase testing, increase the testing of competitive sports people rather than regular gym goers.

What exactly is it that denmarks program has achieved? What benefit has it provided to the community? (Serious q)

warby, I am going to inquire further to see if there has been a benefit.

I assume there has been from what Danish professor told me, but will see if I can get info (in time). a lot of gym trainers being caught though, is that a measure of success.

Gtrain said:

This may seem like a stupid question but I don't think it has been asked yet.

Why?

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This is sort of my question as well, what are the advantages?? How will it stop steroid use??

People who want to use steroids will just go to another gym, there is just no point to the whole thing.

mick, I suppose there was no point to drug testing in sport, but now sport is a lot cleaner and superstars are no longer protected.

Statements like 'there is no point' look quite silly given what has happened in past 20 years. Sport today is much cleaner, albeit some cheating still goes on. Why can't it be the same in gyms.

In Denmark, debate has now moved on to how the non-obliging gyms (the minority) can be targeted.

I suppose the Danes are a bit more 'can do' than us.

spartacus said:

mick, I suppose there was no point to drug testing in sport, but now sport is a lot cleaner and no star is protected.

Statements like 'there is no point' look quite silly given what has happened in past 20 years. Sport today is much cleaner, albeit some cheating still goes on. Why can't it be the same in gyms.

In Denmark, debate has now moved on to how the non-obliging gyms can be targeted.

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There is no truth in this statement, no one has any idea about the relative "cleaners" of any sport. If athletes are getting around testing protocols how do you know till testing catches up a decade later or people inform on each other.

Using cycling as the example. Thorough and vigorous test protocol yet nearly everyone in the tour de France peleton was cheating.

As for testing gym rats it reeks of communism and it surprises me somewhere as progressive as Denmark would take such ingotant steps. Are the Danes also backward in their use of trt like Australia is?

Why is it okay for menopausal women to have hormone replacement but such taboo for men?

What is it that makes our society so scared of steroids. On the sporting stage look who excels, the eastern bloc and china, why? Two reasons both equally important-
1. Culture
2. State sponsored chemical enhancement of athletes

@sartacus; I meant to type cleanliness in sport but this piece of shit iPhone made it cleaners arrrrgh

spartacus said:

mick, I suppose there was no point to drug testing in sport, but now sport is a lot cleaner and no star is protected.

Statements like 'there is no point' look quite silly given what has happened in past 20 years. Sport today is much cleaner, albeit some cheating still goes on. Why can't it be the same in gyms.

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Going to the gym is not a competitive sport, it's just going to the gym, as I said earlier I support drug testing in sport as it hopefully stops the cheats, but what does that have to do with recreational gym goers that train to impress the chicks at the beach??

So are we going to drug test anyone that buys a football at Target, or anyone that buys running shoes as well?? So if my misses goes to the gym she should expect to get drug tested??

If I go to the gym why should I be drug tested, I do not compete in any sports what so ever, I just lift weights for the sake of training and not sitting on the lounge, so what rights does anyone have to subject me to a drug test?? On what grounds?? And most of all WHY?? What advantage will there be for it?? How would it affect anyones life if I did use drugs??

Once I step in the competition arena of any competitive sport, then I can and should be drug tested. A recreational gym goer getting tested is an invasion of privacy, and a complete waste of time and money as it will achieve nothing.

I am certainly no communist.

Sport is cleaner, I intend to do a study of track and field performances since 2000 to prove it.

Still some cheating goes on, that is why many still get caught.

Mick, I see no difference between the rights of elite sportspeople and those just training and not competing. It may be a flawed view, but it is my view. Rules should be applied consistently, and plenty of people just training take PEDs.

Mick, the people employed (Anti Doping Denmark) carefully target those to be tested (although I am sure the system is not perfect); that is why there is a high ratio of those in gyms being caught (80% of positive tests from gyms yet the gym tests represent a small proportion of total tests).

spartacus said:

............
Mick, I see no difference between the rights of elite sportspeople and those just training and not competing. It may be a flawed view, but it is my view. Rules should be applied consistently, and plenty of people just training take PEDs.....

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Sorry Spartacus, to say that your view is flawed is a monumental understatement.

In the meantime, Did you also know that Denmark is wanting to legalise certain recreational drugs?

spartacus said:

Sport today is much cleaner, albeit some cheating still goes on. Why can't it be the same in gyms.

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Because there is a need for a level playing field in sport. There is no such need in gyms where people are not competing because there's no such thing as an unfair advantage when there's no-one to hold an advantage over. That's so fundamental that it shouldn't need explaining.

If you want to place an imposition on people's freedoms, the onus is on you to show that it is substantially in the public interest to do so and that that benefit is not outweighed by the imposition of that restriction. You don't get to ask "Why can't we apply these restrictions to recreational gymgoers?" but rather "Why must these restrictions apply to recreational gymgoers?". You haven't answered this question, but more worrying is that you feel no need to.

The rules in sport are there for a reason, being that athletes should not have to compromise their health to stay competitive by taking drugs that have negative side-effects. That reason is not relevant to people who are not incentivised to perform better than their peers.

Professional athletes choose to compete under a set of rules that they have agreed to, part of which is a drug-use policy. THAT is why they are tested, because they have contractually agreed not to use certain substances.

By your reasoning, private motorists shouldn't be able to make internal engine modifications to their vehicles because in production car competition such modifications are not allowed.

spartacus said:

Mick, I see no difference between the rights of elite sportspeople and those just training and not competing. It may be a flawed view, but it is my view. Rules should be applied consistently, and plenty of people just training take PEDs.

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This statement baffles me... You believe that everyone who picks up a barbell should be subject to the same rules as elite competitors???? For what benefit?

So, would you also like to see refs in gyms to red light every high squat or touch and go bench?

don't agree with you. Should be same for all. recreation or competitive, I see no difference at all. Why should there be health issues for athletes over drugs, and not for mirror athletes, dancers, or even bouncers.

I realise I am on my own on this site, but I wanted to tested the waters. I need to see if I can undertake a legitimate community survey, including people training in gyms, to observe whether there would be support in gyms for testing. You guys appear to be unanimous in your view, but I would be surprised if it was as one-sided as you guys suggest.

As I said before, they do not merely test anyone. That is why a high proportion get caught.

Darkoz, no view on recreational drugs, this pieced is on PEDs, leave it that.

Do you honestly suggest that Denmark introduced its strategy without community debate or support. Of course, it would only be implemented here if there was majority Aust support.

As for recreational people just choosing to take PEDs, supposedly innocent and immune from public sentiment, give it a rest. Don't give me your libertarian bs. If you don't take PEDs, no need to worry, is there.

Like is said, I will wait for article to be published. If it is, will send to the appropriate authorities. If they take up matter, which I doubt, you can try your logic convincing them. I doubt if most Austs would ever say its is every gym goer's right to take illegal PEDs. If the problem of illegal PED use is proven, then there is a chance some greater action will happen, as it has in Denmark and elsewhere.

The state meddles too much in the affairs of its citizens already.

What you are suggesting is to allow the further dilution of our personal freedoms.

I train at home, would you have the authorities be able to come to my home and drug test me against my will?

This is assumption of guilt, the basis of our society and legal system is that the onus is on the state to prove you are guilty of a crime before they are allowed to meddle in your affairs, what your suggesting sets very dangerous precedents.

Unlike workplace testing which you do not have to participate in, at the end of the day people are free to walk away from a job if they do not want to be drug tested.

What do the danes do to those that test positive, jail them? Fine them? Publicly shame them?

For what benefit, so some politican can grand stand about how great a job they are doing of ensuring the safety of the nuclear family unit by ensuring the scourge of steroids is kept out of gyms. Please spare me.

Your an intelligent man [MENTION=6618]spartacus[/MENTION]; I suspect you are just engaging in some sensationalist reporting, maybe you could write scripts for today tonight?


God damn I love a healthy debate.

Brick, I am more interested in consistent testing in powerlifting (in all feds) for a number of reasons,

I just wanted to test waters with a couple of paragraphs in my article, the Danish solution.

It appears that the Danes have gone berserk.
http://www.premium-steroids.com/?p=526

I actually call for a better solution in line with Aust's tradition of minimal govt intervention. I focus on powerlifting, and simply referred to Denmark making a greater effort.

If you ever get to read it, it is also quite critical of PA for a number of reasons which I am now pursuing with the ASC, and ombudsman if need be.

I am merely explaining why the govt policy towards powerlifting and drug testing highlights another govt failure.

Nevertheless, I would support training in a drug tested gym and fed. My choice in line with my freedom to have such an opinion.

who would pay for the cost of the tests? they aren't cheap..

in Denmark, govt contributes, gyms may pay a fee, and proportion of membership fee.

These costs would have to be worked out.

If for fed, many countries already have members pay for drug tests through proportion of fee (US, Canada and UK - the liberal minded countries).