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well...I'm still unsure. I get that there was no concent (due to the person being dead). There are probably not many laws in place about such an unusual practice. Even though female circumcision is illegal in Australia...it still happens.

correct. But the practice is archaic and it's against the law in Western culture.

I think the law covers rape with a fairly broad but easily interpreted wording "rape is the act of sex, where no consent has been given by the victim"

It's fairly clear? And therefore is applicable to necrophilia as a catchment too.

Female circumcision is a WHOLE other matter....that you don't want to get me started on. lol

This is form of deprivation of pleasure, historically, was used to make the men within a tribe feel more comfortable and in control of their daughter's sexual prowess. Given that circumcision occurs at the average age of puberty, between 10-14.

Sexuality is a powerful thing.

Taking that away from someone is a form of control and oppression. And yes, it was widely practiced in many African and Middle Eastern cultures for centuries. And to this day, is still performed in some of them.

But thankfully, all cultures now have women's rights groups and advocacy programs and groups that speak out against this archaic abomination and they have managed to make headway with the laws of various countries.

As humanity, we have definitely made much progress, but there's still such a very long way to go.
 
you suggesting I'm evil, G??? ohhhhh ... exterminate!!! lol

actually, I was saying that as if I related better to other creatures on our own planet... human beings defy logic at the best of times. Oh maybe i relate to Vulcans better :)

On topic, I'm just appalled at what seems to be an ever increasing oppression of people, and women in particular, in a number of cultures and regions. If you consider all the lives that have been lost in senseless war in just the last decade, what real positive achievements have resulted from all the bloodshed?

Worse, it's done in the name of "god". It just makes me sick, physically and in my soul. As a human being, and as a woman.

I know what you mean VB. A couple of years ago there was an amazing story in the news about Kurdish immigrants (might be wrong, can't recall for sure) living in London. The father of this family didn't approve of his adult daughter's relationship with a young man, and he made life a misery for them....threatened both with serious violence, to the point where they feared for their lives and reported it to police.

Long story short, but the police eventually lost interest and touch, and the father arranged for his brothers to kill his daughter. Unbelievable. She had been living in fear for around a year, terrified, and then murdered by her own blood family. An 'honour' killing....I was just shocked reading about it. I can't fathom how you could do that to your own family......how anyone can get to the point where social values and expectations mean more than your daughters life. I think it comes down to basic stupidity and lack of reasoning on the offenders part. No half-intelligent person could do such a thing.
 
I remember that UK story, G ... it breaks my heart that this is the accepted norm in some cultures, for whatever reason. Especially when honour killings and other practices like it are sanctioned by law.

I would protect my cat with my life ... I cannot imagine not protecting one's children and worse, being the cause of harm to them.

:(
 
Seems logical.... Who doesn't see the appeal in having sex with something dead.... surprised its taken this long.....


On a serious note, would love to know how they figured that six hours would be the length of time... doesn't rigamortis(sp?) set in before then?
 
Seems logical.... Who doesn't see the appeal in having sex with something dead.... surprised its taken this long.....


On a serious note, would love to know how they figured that six hours would be the length of time... doesn't rigamortis(sp?) set in before then?

Can you imagine there being a court case where the defendant slept with his wife 7 hrs after she passed away and them arguing over who's clock was correct and the merits of the 6 hr window?

Thankfully Australia has a senate which can filter some laws from becoming official :p
 
As Bella has already pointed out earlier on, we must not mix or confuse cultural practices with religion with secular laws and so on. Here's a video of two citizens who belong to the most of cultured and modern societies in the western world: Germany.


[YOUTUBE]aFu7Pmt8U78[/YOUTUBE]

I sure as hell would not think any differently of Germany and the German people and their secular law based on that video. One has to do one's own homework if one is really interested, in order to distinguish fact from fiction, or at least what the facts are based upon: religion, culture, tribal law, etc. etc...?


Fadi.
 
There are plenty of weird folk who do things to opress, supress and abuse humanity, not in the name of religion at all.

I think we're talking 'extremes' here, which shouldn't be clouded by societal stereotypes of entire religions, ethnicities, genders or races of people.

There are plenty of sick folk in the world, of every creed, gender, race and religion.

Yes, but it is more to do with context Bella.

The argument from those who have a "faith" often say for example; look at Stalin, he was an Atheist and a horrible man who did contrived things. This is true. Heinous acts and violence are committed by those with who have a faith and those who don't. The point here is that a lot of blood has been spilled in the name of religion. These people do things because they are catholic, muslim, christian etc. On the other hand, people don't commit heinous acts because they're an 'athiest'. This is akin to saying Stalin had a mustache, therefore men with a mustache commit heinous crimes*

*I am sure many have, but you get the point :D

I myself am without faith (I "used" to be Catholic as this what was taught, but as I grew throughout my teens, I tried forcing myself to believe these 'truths' but logic and reasoning (aka science) had already put me in good stead.)

Those closest to me (my father etc) still are Catholic and probably some of the most genuine people you could meet. Alas, that was not my point!
 
Yes, but it is more to do with context Bella.

The argument from those who have a "faith" often say for example; look at Stalin, he was an Atheist and a horrible man who did contrived things. This is true. Heinous acts and violence are committed by those with who have a faith and those who don't. The point here is that a lot of blood has been spilled in the name of religion. These people do things because they are catholic, muslim, christian etc. On the other hand, people don't commit heinous acts because they're an 'athiest'. This is akin to saying Stalin had a mustache, therefore men with a mustache commit heinous crimes*

*I am sure many have, but you get the point :D

I myself am without faith (I "used" to be Catholic as this what was taught, but as I grew throughout my teens, I tried forcing myself to believe these 'truths' but logic and reasoning (aka science) had already put me in good stead.)

Those closest to me (my father etc) still are Catholic and probably some of the most genuine people you could meet. Alas, that was not my point!

You've got me all curious now Minchia. Was WWI and WWII where millions of people were killed religiously based? I mean was it Muslims against Christians or Jews against Hindus etc. etc.? Or was it secular power and greed based? I'm only asking here, please enlighten me.

Thank you for your time in advance.


Fadi.
 
Yes, but it is more to do with context Bella.

The argument from those who have a "faith" often say for example; look at Stalin, he was an Atheist and a horrible man who did contrived things. This is true. Heinous acts and violence are committed by those with who have a faith and those who don't. The point here is that a lot of blood has been spilled in the name of religion. These people do things because they are catholic, muslim, christian etc. On the other hand, people don't commit heinous acts because they're an 'athiest'. This is akin to saying Stalin had a mustache, therefore men with a mustache commit heinous crimes*

*I am sure many have, but you get the point :D

I myself am without faith (I "used" to be Catholic as this what was taught, but as I grew throughout my teens, I tried forcing myself to believe these 'truths' but logic and reasoning (aka science) had already put me in good stead.)

Those closest to me (my father etc) still are Catholic and probably some of the most genuine people you could meet. Alas, that was not my point!

Minchia, I adore you, but I don't see how any of this is relevant to the OP? It definitely is fodder for another conversation however.

You're right, horrible acts are committed in the name of religion - the religion itself is irrelevant because it's humanity that commits the crimes, not religions.

Plenty of athiests commit heinous acts of violence too.

But I think we need to be careful not to condemn an entire relgion, based around the acts committed by extremists within that religion?

It's just like condemning an entire race of people, for what Ivan Milat did. Not all Australian's are like that, but we've certainly churned out some exceedingly violent people?

Not all who follow islam are full of hate or violence either. I have muslim friends, have always had muslim friends,who I love dearly, they're the most peaceful people I know. And when acts of atrocity are committed, they are on their knees praying for the victims of those crimes, and heartbroken that they are done in the name of their beloved koran.

A 'few' extremists, should not allow us the right to judge an entire relgion, country or culture. Because as we all well know, not everyone is the same. We are all different. Structures within a larger structure...

Much of our moral stance, beliefs and values, come from our upbringing, handed down by our parents - I think "religion" is often used as a poorly veiled excuse, and twisted interpretation of what is largely a peaceful text and series of stories that are meant to uplift and provide comfort for those who seek it.

When we're talking about female circumcision, or 'honour killings' or little girls being married off from the age of 8 & 9 to men old enough to be their grandfathers, well that becomes a cultural thing. Often veiled thinly behind religious beliefs too, to try and add some weight and baring to it all.

In the end, we cannot judge. But we can help, we can educate, we can provide refuge for those who flee, we can provide a platform to hear the people who want to talk, and create advocacy programs for those that want to use them. This is humanity.

My 4 months in the Middle East were the most enlightening and heartbreaking of my entire 12 years abroad. I learnt alot about myself and my own heart there. And I learnt alot about them as a people...

Sweeping statements are just that. I personally don't like them, because they capture and judge too many people who don't fit into them.

But I do understand what you're saying Minchia.
 
Hi Fadi, that wasn't what I was getting at, but anyhow - I am not here to offend you.

With regards to WW1:

The cause of World War 1 was a visit to Serbia from Austria's Archduke where he was assassinated by one of the many angry Serbians who were mistreated by the Austrian Government who enforced higher taxes to pay for churches. So Austria invaded Serbia angering other countries which turned into everyone picking sides and fighting each other.

With regards to WW2:

There is much debate with regards to Hitler and his faith:

Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country
 
i think we can all agree that fundamentalists often have quite a good understanding of scriptures and cultural practices as well as having a high level of commitment to their mission. . It would be quite hard to dispute this. Often so they see what moderates do....living in a world of mediocracy...which fuels the funde's passion.

I saw this first hand when in the church. I spent a tad over 20 years in the church and often was exposed to funde's who saw moderate or less zealous believers as not as 'well versed as they should be. Let's not make this thread about religion.
 
I'm not after a debate. To Minchia, I say thank you kindly. To Bella, I say your wisdom is immeasurable and I love you for it more and more with each passing day.


Fadi.
 
i think perhaps some of you have strayed from PB's original post

(and you are the master of putting the pussycats amongst the pigeons ... :D)

the issue here is not about putting the reasons why heinous acts are commited on an even footing.

The issue here is that a nation's government is proposing/considering passing laws that would legalise actions that in most of the world are considered criminal by law and on moral grounds.
These are secular laws that are being proposed and it matters not whether they are on cultural or religious grounds (much blood has been spilled over the millenia on both grounds and for many other reasons by people of all backgrounds).

What frightens me is what these types of laws do to people, and specifically to the status of women in societies around the world, given the context of these laws.

Frankly, I don't care what people believe, so long as no harm is done to others for those beliefs. That is the same whether those beliefs are religious, social, economic, political, whatever.

Human history has such an ebb and flow of advancement and regression. This looks like regression.
 
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