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Think of it like this. Early research leads to theories and with further research those theories have to be disregarded and the real picture comes out. It is not like the research is totally debunking having aminos available it is just that theories went a little too far as they do with limited research.

Also the net and your friends tend to enlarge theories a little bit. I have done it believing other scientists too but when evidence stares you in the face you have to take notice.

So have a pre workout shake and you will be fine. Have a meal after you workout when ever. I personally have a huge meal post workout as that is the time I need and have to eat due to work etc.

Do you not see the irony in this tho? There are new theories now and the net is saying different things.

Who's to say we won't look back on this in 5 years and be saying the exact same thing about the 'new' theory?

I'm not saying its not necessarily correct, but the point above resonates in my mind. I got shown loads and loads of studies back in the day about how important a PWO shake was. Then I got shown loads and loads of studies about how its really a 3-4:1 carb / protein ratio you need PWO.

Now the studies are showing this. What will they show next month? Will it be back to PWO shakes with high protein?
 
I don't know for sure, but a lot of those past studies promoting post workout protein supplements may have been funded and pushed by the protein companies?
 
Pistach that is how science works. Theories improve as better research and science becomes available. This is how our knowledge advances, otherwise we would be still back in the dark ages thinking the world was flat.

Also not to mention the fitness industry loves to take things to extremes. Eg, no fat diets, no carb diets, eating 10 meals a day, ect.
 
I've been meaning to re-visit Fadi's lose fat/keep muscle thread...whatever it's called....he talks about HIIT and doing a 10 minute workout from memory. I read it several weeks back....i think it's an excellent read for those interested in this topic.
Thank you DKD.

I think you're talking about this (the 10 minutes program):Let’s Lose Some Fat Mass…

The other program, this one:Lose Fat / Maintain Muscle is geared to setting some soild metabolic/mitochondria foundation for the new muscle growth that is to come.

Take care,

Fadi.
 
Thanks Fadi, I've just read through both threads. Excellent food for thought in both of them. I need to 'waken' my metabolism so your advice will be invaluable.
 
Pistach that is how science works. Theories improve as better research and science becomes available. This is how our knowledge advances, otherwise we would be still back in the dark ages thinking the world was flat.

Also not to mention the fitness industry loves to take things to extremes. Eg, no fat diets, no carb diets, eating 10 meals a day, ect.

I know, i am still always somewhat hesitant to jump on the latest bandwagon tho....

Thank you DKD.

I think you're talking about this (the 10 minutes program):Let’s Lose Some Fat Mass…

The other program, this one:Lose Fat / Maintain Muscle is geared to setting some soild metabolic/mitochondria foundation for the new muscle growth that is to come.

Take care,

Fadi.

I'm curious Fadi that you responded to that, but didn't address any of the topic related to PWO nutrition?

I know you are (were?) a huge fan of the 3-4:1 carb-protein ratio. Have you been converted, or just didn't want to argue your point?
 
Things evolve as we learn, as bazza said we know the earth is not flat now and have moved on from there.

You may also have looked at all these studies (I mean this with no offense intended) but do you think you could understand the complexities of breaking down the information of a physiology based study without training in it. Could you spot the flaws, assumptions, manipulations of data etc that goes on to purport the scientists believed theory (they are still human). This breaking down of a study is what is really needed to get full benefit from its findings. Trust me it is hard and tedious and took me a long time to get it to where i am now and I still don't think I am good at it. Then there are people who will take bits to show their way of thinking is right without using the whole information from the study. There are also mistakes we make in thinking that the findings as are important as we.want them to be.
 
Things evolve as we learn, as bazza said we know the earth is not flat now and have moved on from there.

You may also have looked at all these studies (I mean this with no offense intended) but do you think you could understand the complexities of breaking down the information of a physiology based study without training in it. Could you spot the flaws, assumptions, manipulations of data etc that goes on to purport the scientists believed theory (they are still human). This breaking down of a study is what is really needed to get full benefit from its findings. Trust me it is hard and tedious and took me a long time to get it to where i am now and I still don't think I am good at it. Then there are people who will take bits to show their way of thinking is right without using the whole information from the study. There are also mistakes we make in thinking that the findings as are important as we.want them to be.

nah no offense mate, and i agree 100% with what your saying.

pretty much what you've said is the confirmation I've wanted. the text in bold is why I didn't accept it as fact just because someone quoted a study. Cos everyone does that.

But if this is the general consensus these days, AFTER everyone has actually analysed the studies, then i am satisfied
 
Think of it like this. Early research leads to theories and with further research those theories have to be disregarded and the real picture comes out. It is not like the research is totally debunking having aminos available it is just that theories went a little too far as they do with limited research.

Also the net and your friends tend to enlarge theories a little bit. I have done it believing other scientists too but when evidence stares you in the face you have to take notice.

So have a pre workout shake and you will be fine. Have a meal after you workout when ever. I personally have a huge meal post workout as that is the time I need and have to eat due to work etc.

In a tangentially related vein, I generally perform better when I've had something with carbs and protein in it about 30-60min before training, such as milk. I don't think it's a placebo, because I've consumed other things and expected the same results, but not gotten them...but it could still be a deep-seeded milk-fetish placebo. I'm typically in the gym for 1.5hr+ (anything under that time is a short session to me; anything over 2hr is probably because I've been talking to people too long during rest periods), and then I'll normally walk home, which is another half hour. I'll either have a PWO (just a drink of milo, usually) on the way home or once I get home. But when I have my PWO, it's not so much because I'm paranoid that the cortisol fairies will steal my protein synthesis, it's just that by the time I have it, the last thing (other than water) that I've consumed is a glass of milk about 3-4hr ago.
 
I know, i am still always somewhat hesitant to jump on the latest bandwagon tho....



I'm curious Fadi that you responded to that, but didn't address any of the topic related to PWO nutrition?

I know you are (were?) a huge fan of the 3-4:1 carb-protein ratio. Have you been converted, or just didn't want to argue your point?
Sorry about that, I was simply addressing a specific point relating to what I've written.

Now to the drink around workout time. I see that some are talking about some new studies etc., however at the end of the day nothing beats hands on. In addition to that, nothing beats knowing one's self and how one responds to different approaches.

There are times when we do a particular thing based on some study, yet there are other times when we simply do based on our intuition. Now as far as I'm concerned, if something has been working for me, then no study or studies are going to affect a change in my approach.

Let's get more specific here. I know that I have a fast metabolism, and I also know that if I don't take advantage of what some studies call the "window of opportunity" right after a workout, then as time goes by, I would go from looking like a bodybuilder who's building, to one that looks like a bodybuilder who's cutting. In other words, I would lose instead of gain, which defeats the purpose of working out in the first place (for me).

I have been experimenting with yet another approach for a pre workout drink involving short and medium chain fatty acids, as well as specific foods that are ultra low on the glycimic index, yet have a profound effect on insulin release. It would all be in an article I've yet to put up on the forum. I'm just fine tuning few things at the moment both in theory and practice.

I’ll leave you with this: never underestimate the psychology of bodybuilding. The way you feel would determine the way you eat, and the way you eat also does have a profound effect on the way you feel. If I’ve just finished a brutal workout, and (based on some study) I’ve decided to have nothing, the mere empty feeling in my stomach may be bad enough to play havoc with my mind which would in turn place me in more of a catabolic state than I’m already in.

You’ve got to be content (and convinced) with what you’re doing, feeling comfortable about it all the way. Just as there are many bodybuilding programs that work, there are also many approaches to eating that also work. You’ve got to find what works best for you and make it your own. That’s what separates a champion from the rest.

Cheers,

Fadi.
 
You haven't read any of my posts have you? :p

Read the links I posted in my first response, it explains it all.

The most important part of nutrient timing is consuming your DAILY nutrient requirements. How and when you have your DAILY nutrient requirements is irrelevant to body composition or energy balance.

Think of it like this, what would HAVE the biggest effect on body composition, if you a) consumed a PWO shake then didn't eat what you should have for the day or b) didn't have a PWO shake yet consumed what you needed for the day?

If you want to do it, all good. But as I've explained it is unnecessary :)

FYI, unless you have not been eating for 3 full days, you ain't any place near catabolic town :D

PS, I trained FASTED and don't eat or consume anything post workout until 5 hours after I've finished training............Gaining strength, building muscle etc etc. Our bodys are much smarter than we think! It will super-compensate without us telling it too :)

I have a question for you, according to your knowledge/research.

Ok, so you say that the amount of calories per meal or meal timing etc is irrelevant, it is only the total macros for the day correct?

In that case, why is the cutoff point a day? ie Couldn't you eat less calories one day, more on another, so long as overall you have the same amount? Or do you subscribe to carb cycling, high/low calorie days etc.

It seems that there is a cutofff somewhere, ie, at SOME point, the amount of calories/macros within a certain time frame IS important. Not per meal, according to you and others, but per day. But why per day, not say per week?

Do you get what I am trying to say?
 
I have a question for you, according to your knowledge/research.

1- Ok, so you say that the amount of calories per meal or meal timing etc is irrelevant, it is only the total macros for the day correct?

2 - In that case, why is the cutoff point a day? ie Couldn't you eat less calories one day, more on another, so long as overall you have the same amount? Or do you subscribe to carb cycling, high/low calorie days etc.

3 - It seems that there is a cutofff somewhere, ie, at SOME point, the amount of calories/macros within a certain time frame IS important. Not per meal, according to you and others, but per day. But why per day, not say per week?

4 - Do you get what I am trying to say?
1 - Yes it is the total calories and macronutrient make that determines body composition.

2 & 3 - The whole cut off for a 'day' in calories and macronutrients etc is simply for the easy of tracking. You could do a weekly intake if you wanted but the simple fact of tracking and having a schedule on a day to day basis makes things easier to adhere to. Long term calorie and macornutirent intake is what determines body composition, not day to day changes. If it was a meal to meal or even day to day situation, why has studies shown that metabolic slow down does not occur until the 72 hour mark without food (some have even show 96 hours)?

4 - Yes,I get what you are trying to say :)

You must remember, the whole post workout thing/importance was promoted by COMPANIES that had products to sell and where based on studies only looking at fasted (no food) training and the direct training time frame. As others have mention, research and science has gotten much more in depth and they have a much better understanding compared to the early 90's. These 'findings' are not so new, but with most things old dogmas die hard.

So now studies have since been done that have focused on the WHOLE day etc and has just proven that timing is meaningless. Unless you are an endurance athlete with multiple training sessions in the one day, timing of nutrient intake is of no importance. Timing of nutrient intake is purely personal preference. If you wish to continue to follow those protocols, go for it :)
 
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Ok, thanks for clarifying all that MB.

I will continue to have a sizeable meal after the gym, as I feel I owe it to myself to have a decent feed after destroying myself at the gym.

But I won't bother with post workout shakes anymore then. Should help to drop the calories too.

I will continue to have the BCAAs during my workout, more so just to get some BCAAs in me, especially as I won't be having much protein powder anymore.

So I take it you feel Calcium Caseinate before bed (or at any time really) is useless then?
 
Ok, thanks for clarifying all that MB.

I will continue to have a sizeable meal after the gym, as I feel I owe it to myself to have a decent feed after destroying myself at the gym.

But I won't bother with post workout shakes anymore then. Should help to drop the calories too.

I will continue to have the BCAAs during my workout, more so just to get some BCAAs in me, especially as I won't be having much protein powder anymore.

So I take it you feel Calcium Caseinate before bed (or at any time really) is useless then?
No problem at all mate :)

This is what I think of protein powder, seriously - The BodyEvolution Report: What You Need To Know About Supplements - Protein Powder

Unless your protein intake is below minimum requirements to stimulate protein synthesis (around 1.6g/kg) BCAA's are not required. But again, totally up to you if you wish to use them :)

Eat what you want and need, when you want :)
 
For the people on this forum that know a lot more about cardio than I do, I have a few questions for you.... I posted a bit of this in my log, but not sure how many people read it, so thought I'd put it here as well.

1) I am thinking of doing about 20 minutes of HIIT cardio on the treadmill at my gym. What would be a good structure for this type of training?

1min low intensity, 45 seconds high? Bearing in mind that the treadmill takes 5-10 seconds to speed up or slow down.

2) Is it ok to do cardio before or after a workout? If so, which one is better?

The way my workouts are structured, I can manage to come in on ONE separate day to do designated cardio, but if I want to do TWO sessions, it'll have to be on a gym day.

You preferably want to keep Cardio and Weights separate Nutman. None of this walking crap either as I know you don't weigh 300lbs and aren't competing in any Bodybuilding or Strength sports.

Look up how Wendler does his HIIT Hill Sprints/Treadmill workouts. Wendler learnt that off me.
 
Walking is something we should all do everyday. It's not Cardio. It's just a natural function we should all do everyday.
 
How much?

As you would have seen I was actually going to start a thread, but too many kunts gripe about threads being started, on a forum already low in traffic.

You do as much Walking as you like Shrek. I know how much the research says you should do for Health benefits but I couldn't be fucked spending my Saturday night arguing with you Muthatrukkers!
 
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