• Keep up to date with Ausbb via Twitter and Facebook. Please add us!
  • Join the Ausbb - Australian BodyBuilding forum

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

    The Ausbb - Australian BodyBuilding forum is dedicated to no nonsense muscle and strength building. If you need advice that works, you have come to the right place. This forum focuses on building strength and muscle using the basics. You will also find that the Ausbb- Australian Bodybuilding Forum stresses encouragement and respect. Trolls and name calling are not allowed here. No matter what your personal goals are, you will be given effective advice that produces results.

    Please consider registering. It takes 30 seconds, and will allow you to get the most out of the forum.

Keto - The Good The Bad The Ugly

swiz

New member
this is what works for me and im not saying it will work for everyone.

also id like to point out that I dont reccomend keto unless your in a bad situation or recquire really fast fat loss. its farely extreme...id rather just cut calories if i could

Attention all extreme dieters. You will lose a lot on this diet...but id advocate doing it slow...as the quicker you lose the quicker your body will try to get back into homeostasis and gain the fat back ...well i know my body does everything it can to stay at the same weightr...im trying to use this to my advantage every way i can


The Good
Going Well after 7 weeks- Dropped 2 pant sizes
Hovering around the same weight and getting stronger so losing fat and putting on muscle. ( not impossible...infact we do this naturally even when we arnt working out) ...body podded it = more muscle less fat.
Extra strong on carb reload - this is from personal experimentation -i rep harder on this day then when i took a week off. ive ready the literature..just my experience
Less sleep needed and better coordination as brain works better during ketosis (harvard medical school and johns hopkins study if you dont agree..hell i didnt beleive it till i googled it...this was my experience...i thought i should be slower and thought maybe i was ingesting too many carbs)

All the bad is more pronounced in the first 4 days after carb reload. I normally get in 'the zone' on the thursday. Then everything is gravy. If the stips are any sign,...i hit keto by tuesday night..but i dont feel good till thursday. besides that im not holding any water and i feel great too.


The Bad
Low seratonin on low carb. Supplementing with 5HT (tryptophan amino) - presented after the 6 week mark, im fine as long as i get my vitamins only need tryptophan on days i dont eat that well and dont get vitamins these are the days i start feeling emotionally f'd

Skin - too much protein = not so good skin...pimples..this is my experience and how my body reacts

if I wrote a story about the whole thing, one of the chapters would be called 'backed up' the other would be called 'my colon hates me' i been havin fiber and veggies...still

on my carb days i dont feel like eating carbs any more..when i do eat a hamburger or something my pulse rises to 85 for a while = please someone tell me why ...massive insulin spiek ?

no energy and going through hypoglycemia (around 10 hours maybe less but this is when the body shifts into ketosis or pre-ketosis as lyle mcdonald / taubes puts it) - need to go through this to release water and glycogen out of the liver and muscles. every week isnt that fun, but its barable

Low carb = low vitamin uptake...so im on so many pills i feel like I have a disease, they include 5HT, Multivitamin, Zinc tablet, Vitamin D, etc etc...you can get away with just a good multi ... but hey i want the extra edge

Lowered ATP on non carb days - 0 glycogen

terrible breathe (brush 17 times per day....well not literally but yeah...and wash those gums trooo!)

Lowered protein synthesis during ketosis (as protein is your fastest burning source of fuel besdes the fat you ingest and the fat from your adipose sites)

when you get tired you become a zombie ...i havnt eaten any brains yet...maybe some bread with brain topping and tomato sauce..and icecream



This is my protocol (I shift between one week and 2 weeks, one week cycle has a full day fast 6pm night before to 6pm the next night...helps get me into gear I think..)

I reccomend making small changes to your diet to get yourself onto this protocol.. Id say from my experience 4 weeks is the induction perdiod..you could start it straight away and finish it up straight away .. iim just saying based on my findings its better if you ease in and ease out...try changing your breakfast first...then lunch ...then dinner...then add a meal etc/. worked for me bettwe this way

took me around 4 weeks before my body responded to this..but when it did boomshakalaka

1 – high calorie (high fat . high protein low carb)
2– high calorie (high fat . high protein <30g carb)
3– high calorie (high fat . high protein <30g carb)
4– high calorie (high fat . high protein <30g carb)
5 – Half day fast (high fat . high protein <30g carb
6 – low fat high protein <30g carb
7– Half day fast (high fat . high protein <30g carb
8– low fat high protein <30g carb
9– low fat high protein <30g carb
0 – Liquid only casein, protein drinks, almonds
11– Liquid only casein, protein drinks, almonds
12 – Liquid only casein, protein drinks, almonds
13 – mid way start carb up -- have some chocolate :D


Explanation of Keto

OK i know u all know this but...

ketosis is a metabolic condition, where you burn fat for fuel rather than carbs (carb burn is what most modern humans have been in since birth).

a calorie is literally the amount of heat it takes to raise a body of water by a degree. fat burns hotter in a sense. we need to eat fat to enter ketosis and stay there.

To lose weight a variation of the first law of thermodynamics must be true for the given situation. This is not a method...think of it as a proof for whatever your doing. It states

A NEGATIVE CHANGE IN ENERGY = HEAT ADDED TO THE SYSTEM < WORK DONE BY THE SYSTEM

ketosis is not a marker for fat loss as you could easily be getting all the fat you need from the diet. just like anything you need to be in a deficit somehow to lose fat as with the above. ketones just help you mobilise the fat a heck of a lot easier.

lipolysis or beta oxidation or fat loss is a lot harder when not in ketosis because your body is hanging onto that fat for a rainy day when it might need it and its not going to give up its hard earned savings very easily...and its getting enought energy from carbs



so both of those facts should have you eating fat. its what its all about

to lose fat while in ketosis it all has to do with where your body gets the fatty acid from. if you are already in ketosis and you are not getting enough fat from the diet..then your body will turn to the fat stored in your body. you gotta add stimulous which contantly puts you in an increased metabolic state without crashing your metabolism.

rem fat energy crazy hot so if you eat extra fat forget about losing weight, unless ur burning it off



Now you ask why dont you just eat really low calories? Because if you do that your metabolism will crash and you will feel like dog shit and you wont lose any weight.

Also theres a hormone in your body called leptin. Its what tells your brain you dont need to store any more body fat. levels of this hormone go down after some time in ketosis. which is why you need to refeed carbs..to get it back up. we wouldnt need to do this but unfortunately we have been carb burners since we were babies.

the water loss, they call this induction flu, doesnt happen to everyone. depends on lotsa stuff. when you lose glycogen. when it is all release you lose 2/3 of water weight as well. but not all pepople lose weight , some just piss a lot.

u only store around 270grams of glycogen...but if glucose is premium unleaded..glycogen is jet fuel..takes time for the body to make it, used primarily for stabilising blood sugar and for fight or flight response. i dont know why water comes out when its used up...but it does
 
Last edited:
1 – high calorie (high fat . high protein low carb)
2– high calorie (high fat . high protein <30g carb)
3– high calorie (high fat . high protein <30g carb)
4– high calorie (high fat . high protein <30g carb)
5 – Half day fast (high fat . high protein <30g carb
6 – low fat high protein <30g carb
7– Half day fast (high fat . high protein <30g carb
8– low fat high protein <30g carb
9– low fat high protein <30g carb
0 – Liquid only casein, protein drinks, almonds
11– Liquid only casein, protein drinks, almonds
12 – Liquid only casein, protein drinks, almonds
13 – mid way start carb up
Once I have more free time I will give my in depth response to your 'keto' experience. There are a number of 'issues' with your explainations :)

But first I must draw your attention to 0,11,12. Explain why you did that?
 
Thanks for ...you want me to write a book for you and explain where I got each part from ? Its a CKD...theres a thousand of them, thats my experience. Who are you einstein or something:D are you like the king of keto? the commander of keto? - I jest ...just kidding i appreciate any and all comments...but now until you reply im gonna be wondering which part i got wrong...or might have...

Id appreciate that feedback when you get the time.
 
Last edited:
in those 3 days when its all liquid..ive lost 1kg both times and retained my strength.. also i clear my digestive tract.

Im not working out during the week. should have put that up there. i only work out sat and sunday as I have 4 hours of travel to work for the next few months monday - friday. I struggled with this for 6 months leading up to this time of my working life i call 'the trial' didnt want to get any fatter and my goal was to lose fat and gain lean tissue...besides the honeymoon period I knew this would be extremely hard.so i started reading, watching speaking to people etc...my work schedule has me...leave home at 5 get home at 8:30 (wio09[5fue)(*)^&).. .anyway I finally got it in my sweet spot...as far as I know, thats it up there. Anyway besides my workout sessions, im generally active but thats all.

the above is just what has worked for me...and I just wanna put it out there. Shoot it down if you want...but please give me something constructive so I can have something to muse over for another few weeks.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for ...you want me to write a book for you and explain where I got each part from ? Its a CKD...theres a thousand of them, thats my experience. Who are you einstein or something:D are you like the king of keto? the commander of keto? - I jest ...just kidding i appreciate any and all comments...but now until you reply im gonna be wondering which part i got wrong...or might have...

Id appreciate that feedback when you get the time.
Hahaha. No you don't need to write a book there are enough out there (shit I've got a friggin 400 page book on Keto) and am a little aware of a CKD :) No I'm not einstein (I'm unaware of that thing you mention LOL), more like a Nazi according to some :D I'll just pass on my thoughts in no such manner other :)
 
in those 3 days when its all liquid..ive lost 1kg both times and retained my strength.. also i clear my digestive tract.

Im not working out during the week. should have put that up there. i only work out sat and sunday as I have 4 hours of travel to work for the next few months monday - friday. I struggled with this for 6 months leading up to this time of my working life i call 'the trial' didnt want to get any fatter and my goal was to lose fat and gain lean tissue...besides the honeymoon period I knew this would be extremely hard.so i started reading, watching speaking to people etc...my work schedule has me...leave home at 5 get home at 8:30 (wio09[5fue)(*)^&).. .anyway I finally got it in my sweet spot...as far as I know, thats it up there. Anyway besides my workout sessions, im generally active but thats all.

the above is just what has worked for me...and I just wanna put it out there. Shoot it down if you want...but please give me something constructive so I can have something to muse over for another few weeks.
From my own personal experience as well from an nerd point of view, I could never understand the reasoning behind following a CKD. Really the back and forth nature of CKD in going into ketosis and then to glucose and back again is painful. As you mentioned strong sometimes, low the next etc. Your body is never getting to fully adapt to either fuel source, especially ketosis. I look at as, just as you are about to be adapted to ketosis, there is a carb up and that basically puts you back at square one. Ketosis can take 14-21 days to fully be in function.

What is your total calorie intake and what is your macronutrient breakdown in grams? What is/was your total veg intake? What sort of veg was/is it?.
Did you go from your typical way of eating to this form of eating in one step? Also had you tried doing a TKD and keeping a more consistant 'low carb' protocol?
 
Last edited:
both of those are 'low carb...' ofcourse they both stabilise blood sugar

depends on what they mean by 'metabolic advantage' ketosis is a different metabolic condition.

carb burn vs fat burn yeah?

ketone fat mobilisation vs beta oxidation yeah?

fat mobilisation:

Fat -> (low insulin, high activity level leading to release of hormone sensitive lipase, healthy adrenalin levels) -> fat mobilisation to triglyceride -> [beta oxidation or ketosis] (low insulin, high levels of GH) -> Fat into energy -> timed low calorie -> burnt fat.

The opposite (most common way:

High calorie +Carbs -> high insulin / unstable blood sugar, high lipoprotein lipase blocking fat stores -> internal starvation -> increase of insulin receptors in fat cells -> energy used to pass triglycerides through fat wall -> Fat gain.




they are both low carb...maybe one is using a mix of keto and beta oxidation...doesnt mean much to me.

keto is advantageous for people like me who are sensative to carbs. but can be used by anyone



Maxb

na i did tim ferris's slow carb for a while..so i did ease in

the one below is from around 7 weeks ago, i dont have an updated one at work.

veg sources, mosrly broccoli and some lettace

Your right keto is a real struggle. Its that feeling you get on a squat when your stuffed and you know you got another set in 30 seconds.

But i have no choice atm

___


Im 168cm 85kg 25%bf

According to the calorie calculators

Maintenance: 2322 Calories/day
Fat Loss: 1858 Calories/day
Extreme Fat Loss: 1514 Calories/day

Im gonna make a goal of 1700 calories per day.

Im gonna try to get most of my cheat calories +/- 150 cals in before 2pm
 
Last edited:
the oen below is from around 7 weeks ago, i dont have an updated one at work.

veg sources, mosrly broccoli and some lettace

Your right keto is a real struggle. Its that feeling you get on a squat when your stuffed and you know you got another set in 30 seconds.

But i have no choice atm

___


Im 168cm 85kg 25%bf

According to the calorie calculators

Maintenance: 2322 Calories/day
Fat Loss: 1858 Calories/day
Extreme Fat Loss: 1514 Calories/day

Im gonna make a goal of 1700 calories per day.

Im gonna try to get most of my cheat calories +/- 150 cals in before 2pm

When you get your 'cheat' calories in is irrelevant. Makes no difference to body composition as there is a continuous super compensation with hormonal responses etc. FYI carbs at night do not make you fat nor do they make you fat at all ;) Read my blog you do have a choice ;)

With that said, I can understand individuals who have a higher insulin sensitivity (like myself and people who have had high BF% for the long term) but doing there is no reason to go to extreme Keto dieting styles IMO. I guess my diet can be classed as some sort of 'Keto' as I generally have no more than 150 grams of carbs even at my highest intakes (generally I say around 100 -120 grams). You need to get your protein and fat intake readjusted and increase your veg intake. No disrespect but lettuce ain't offering you much so I'm not surprised that you are 'blocked up' and micronutrient deficient :)
 
Why are you cycling carbs if keto vs none-keto made no difference in weight loss?
 
Just food for thought - it is high INSULIN that inhibits lipolysis. Insulin can be released from carbs and PROTEIN. ;)

Getting minimum fat requirements will maintain hormonal functions etc. That is why LOW FAT diets are rubbish.

Unless you are extremely INSULIN SENSATIVE you do not need to go to the extremes form of KETO you are currently following. Look you can if you wish and it is your personal preference but you can still do a 'diet' but it does not need to be classified any any one type if you get what I mean.

Recalculate your macronutrient requirements to meet your calorie intake :)
 
i cycle carbs fpr leptin re-uptake and for my sanity.

yeah i know how protein activates insulin as well as carbohydrate but if the goal is level blood sugar i go with the protein. have you been on a keto?
 
Fat -> (low insulin, high activity level leading to release of hormone sensitive lipase, healthy adrenalin levels) -> fat mobilisation to triglyceride -> [beta oxidation or ketosis] (low insulin, high levels of GH) -> Fat into energy -> timed low calorie or energy output -> burnt fat.

ketosis is a metabolic condition

ketone body metabolism vs carbohydrate body metabolism

ketosis comes off the crebs cycle producing 96atp vs 32 for carb ketones come off of that and circulate in the blood stream , ketone is the only fuel our brain can subsist of other than glucose. Its a natural metablic condition

Ketosis is not a marker of fat metabolism

i was also trying to point this out above

so to your question - > why do i do it if its not burning fat...because ketosis is a metabolic condition where the body burns fats for fuel...either fats you consume or your stored body fat. its an easy way to burn fat without excersising too much or when you dont have time for much excersise but still want to do something extra other than just cutting calories. so as long as the laws of thermodynamics remian true and there is a deficit in calories, you cna be sure you are tapping your fat stores in ketosis.
 
Last edited:
Over the last 10 years i've experienced and trialled a few different variations when dieting down. Everyones body is going to respond differently. I have a made who is shredded by eating 60% carbs while dieting down.

For me, this does not work. Even when caloric intake is restricted and properly monitored. I have found starting off the first week on less than 50g carbs, then moving up gradually in subsequent weeks works well (more from a psychological perspective - as you tend to drain yourself of a lot of glycogen, but your performance isn't hurt that much from only a week on 50gs).

Fats have played a pivotal role (the good kind) for myself. I tend to function best on 40-45% PRO, ~35-40% CHO and ~20% fats. Of course ratio's mean zilch is the quality of food going in is terrible. If i'm trying to lean out a little further, i'll drop carbs closer to 30% while increasing fats and pro. The less CHO you're consuming, the more important quality protein becomes. I've seen some people eating way too much protein while working at gyms(400g daily for someone 80kg is RIDICULOUS). If you've got adequate and quality carbs, you can get away with ~2g/kg and a maximum of 3g/kg of protein. So the inverse is true, the more carbs you're consuming (particularly when above caloric maintenence) protein can be wound down a tad.
 
true ive been bdybuidling for 12 years now, i did take two ooff to become a big lard but im rectifying that now..or tryin to. i think if you continuously depelete glycogen and eat just enough carbs without letting your body adapt you are mobilising ketones anyways which will be used in beta oxidATion to shre d off fat anways

important thing to remember and any seasoned bb knows just coz you excersise heaps and cut calories doesnt neccesarily mean you will get lean..but i think if your continuously pushing out glycogen and repleting your not playing with your hormones like you do in ketosis and you reduce the risk of internal starvation (too much insulin / carbs...all insulin receptors on cells switch off except for fat cells, so not feedin the cells, just the fat...might as well be starvin...take that cheeseake)

all this smart shitt i have to keep going in and editing shit to make sure i dont say nothin wrong... im out ...done thread over..this is my last edit ->

ok so just to reiterate...

carb metabolism & ketone body metabolism are metabolic conditions

fat metabolism is a metabolic process

i explained fat metabolism best i could above

ketone metablism = fat for fuel
carb metabolism =duh

3 different things..

being in ketosis doesnt mean your burning fat... you still gotta be in a deficit
 
Last edited:
I would totally agree also ;)

But things have just been adjusted since doing the TKD protocol I initially did.

I'm not a total carb-a-phobe, more so just the form it is from as I've got such a crappy digestive system LOL. I still now tend to do around the 100-150grm per day so then my 're-feeds' don't knock me around so much as when I was doing full fledged 'KETO' style :)
 
Last edited:
Top