Squat technique - elbows down

So my technique is mostly what I've learned from Rippetoe, but since my buddies have been pestering me for awhile that I should not have my elbows UP and instead they should be down I did some research online and have come to the conclusion that most people recommend elbows down. And since my squat has been stuck for the last couple of months, I thought maybe I should look into this.

Here is my squat form from a month ago: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEjOPBM2R4M]‪Squat Form Check‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

As you can see, my elbows are up in this. In some videos my elbows are even higher than in this video, like horizontal. I've also read that elbows up can cause elbow pain and indeed I have had elbow issues in the past, especially in my left arm.

Now, I still want to use the low bar position, but just change my arm placement to make my squat stronger and elbows healthier. However, the reason I raise my elbows is because that creates the shelf in my back which stops the bar from sliding down. If I try putting my elbows down, the bar feels like it will fall off my back? I am currently using a thumbless grip in order to keep my wrists straight as a thumbs-under grip puts pressure on my wrists.

So, can anyone help me out with bar and arm placement where I can get my elbows under the bar without it feeling like it's slipping down my back? Any articles/videos you can link me to that explain it properly? Should I keep using the thumbless grip or is thumbs-under an important part of elbows under?

Thanks.

i squat low bar with elbows down and thumbless grip... if you pull the bar down into your back, some people say 'dig it in', the bar wont slip, keeping your elbows down helps keep your chest up as well, and so it should make the squat easier. the bar should sit between your traps and delts, you should be able to feel the spot if you have a feel around with the bar. the first few times i was squatting low bar (have always had elbows down as much as possible) it felt like it would slip.
the only trouble iv had is the bar rolling up when i wasnt digging the bar in right.

Everyday I hear something new, some instruction I've never heard before and certainly nothing that I've heard when I was taught how to squat 31 years ago.

Elbows up, elbows down, toes facing front, toes facing out, and on and on. Who cares if my toes are facing out or facing straight as long as the fundemental issue regarding this particular feature is taken care of. That feature is the path that your knees should follow and it's always the path of where your toes are pointing. How would you like to squat with your arms on top of the bar as if you were putting your arms across your girlfriends' shoulders? Never heard that one before? I've done it when the weights were light to medium-heavy just so I could take some pressure off my whole shoulder area. I'm not suggesting you do that, but I'm simply showing you how many different variations one can apply when squatting, as long as the fundamentals are kept in focus, where the bar travels in a straight line between where it's resting on your trapezius to the middle of your foot, then (and only then) one would perhaps begin to entertain other more "important" squatting issues.

My simple message to you is relax and execute the squat the way you feel comfortable and the way it feels comfortable and in the groove for you and not me, your friends, or anyone else for that matter.


Fadi.

I'm going to kind of disagree with Fadi but not totally. Yes, squat however you feel comfortable but be warned that letting your elbows remain flared backwards can lead to problems in the long run. I have poor shoulder flexibility and as such have had trouble keeping my elbows down. Now as my squat has been working above the 200kg mark I am experience a lot of discomfort from my shoulders to my wrists because my arms are having to support more of the weight than they should because I can't pull keep the bar tight enough on my back by pulling my elbows down. Aside from the heavyweights, most other strong quatters I know use the elbow down technique.

Watch these two lifters from the top of my current weight division, their elbows are pulled down to be almost in line with their torsos:
[YOUTUBE]kERWIkHf4oU[/YOUTUBE]

Also having watched your video need to work on your flexibility, there's definitely a bit of buttwink and lower back rounding happening their.

Have u got one of yourself squatting from behind? So we can see your bar placement and the elbows..

- Really squeeze the traps together to create the shelf.
- I generally tell my lifters with low bar squats that the upper back takes the weight not the arms.
- Narrow thumbless grip is standard
- Keep your Elbows back and imagine trying to touch your elbows together (ive had to use a wider grip on the guys with previous shoulder/bicep/arm injuries BUT u lose control over the bar as your not squeezing the traps together)

Also - Im noticing you knee-break squatting any over hip-breaking? (im assuming due to olympic lifting as your keeping your body vertical?)
Any reason not doing the standard hip-break?


BTW this is all based off the video

Ceffo: No, I haven't done any Olympic lifting. I'm pretty sure I'm breaking with my knees and hips at the same time? I'll come into PTC today at around 8 if that's cool.

Freako: Thanks, I'll take a look at that video later, on iPhone ATM. In regards to my back going into flexion, it's often not too bad, but it was winking a bit on that video.

Fadi: thanks, but sometimes the best way to do a lift is not always the most comfortable, is it? At least, not at first. For example the bench press it's often uncomfortable trying to stay tight and arched.

Callan: thanks

Anytime after 8 is fine bro - didnt u come in last time to do an assessment from memory with christian but was sick?

Concerning the hip-break im just going off the video- It does looks like knees but can't always judge.

Nah I Did have a session with Christian couple of months ago. But I just came back from a flu and was very weak that day (more-so than normal)

ok just looked at it again..

one other thing - In low bar u need to use a hip-break first with your knees BEHIND or inline with your toes (low bar squats work your posterior chain more as the hammies and glutes take alot of the load).

In your video it is over your toes (mostly reserved for high bar squats) which puts more emphasis on the quads.

I paused it as required and drew a line.

Fadi said:

Everyday I hear something new, some instruction I've never heard before and certainly nothing that I've heard when I was taught how to squat 31 years ago.

Elbows up, elbows down, toes facing front, toes facing out, and on and on. Who cares if my toes are facing out or facing straight as long as the fundemental issue regarding this particular feature is taken care of. That feature is the path that your knees should follow and it's always the path of where your toes are pointing. How would you like to squat with your arms on top of the bar as if you were putting your arms across your girlfriends' shoulders? Never heard that one before? I've done it when the weights were light to medium-heavy just so I could take some pressure off my whole shoulder area. I'm not suggesting you do that, but I'm simply showing you how many different variations one can apply when squatting, as long as the fundamentals are kept in focus, where the bar travels in a straight line between where it's resting on your trapezius to the middle of your foot, then (and only then) one would perhaps begin to entertain other more "important" squatting issues.

My simple message to you is relax and execute the squat the way you feel comfortable and the way it feels comfortable and in the groove for you and not me, your friends, or anyone else for that matter.


Fadi.

Click to expand...

That's the deal. Everything has a cost, and you always have to pay.

What most trainee's (and I include myself) fail to grasp, is that it takes time to improve. Usually a lot.

For years I have talked, written, practiced, thought and taught this great "exercise"

Fadi sums it up; place yourself in the strongest position.

ceffo said:

ok just looked at it again..

one other thing - In low bar u need to use a hip-break first with your knees BEHIND or inline with your toes (low bar squats work your posterior chain more as the hammies and glutes take alot of the load).

In your video it is over your toes (mostly reserved for high bar squats) which puts more emphasis on the quads.

I paused it as required and drew a line.

Click to expand...

Just get your dead arse under the bar and squat the damn thing.

bro came in today and did an assessment on squat and bench..

He had no issues with both his high bar or low bar squats apart from the elbows pointed out.. depth was good/hip-knee drive was all there.. Just needs more time under the bar and programming in my opinion. I suggested giving high bar a go.

Oh and more assistance triceps work to bring up the bench.


Good luck with the lifting bro

Stretch your lats and do some shoulder dislocates. Keep trying to pull the bar into your back and keep the elbows down while doing a lot of squat sets and reps. Took me 5 weeks.

You don't need to raise the elbows to create a shelf. Squeeze your lats together, keep tight, there's your shelf. Keep the elbows down and pull the bar into your back. Shelf is now tight.

This elbow down technique is very popular among modern powerlifters. For example, all the Russian IPF lifters I've seen do this, even the big SHWs.

Fadi, I'd say this matters more in low bar squatting than what you're used to - high bar Olympic squat. Raised elbows mean chest down / collapsed, and that would lead to an ugly good morning quickly when the weight gets heavy enough, or getting tipped over forward.

Dancelot said:

Fadi, I'd say this matters more in low bar squatting than what you're used to - high bar Olympic squat. Raised elbows mean chest down / collapsed, and that would lead to an ugly good morning quickly when the weight gets heavy enough, or getting tipped over forward.

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Thank you Sir. I should be much more careful who I'm dealing with here since I know nothing of what is required as far as powerlifting is concerned and never have claimed so. Again, thank you for your observation my friend.


Fadi.

Can someone please confirm for me the difference between a low/high bar positioning.

Is it about 3 inches?

Hirdy said:

Can someone please confirm for me the difference between a low/high bar positioning.

Is it about 3 inches?

Click to expand...

high bar: bar sits on top of the traps
low bar: bar sits between the traps and delts

You're welcome, Fadi.

Just saw that bit from ceffo about hip-break. As far as I know, IPF lifters are taught to break at the knees first, which causes the break at the hip at the same time, in a low bar, narrow to medium stance squat. This is how I'm taught at my club as well, and same is taught in our coaching course at Powerlifting Australia. Breaking at the hip first will lead to a chest down & hip rising first when you come out of the hole.

Dancelot said:

Just saw that bit from ceffo about hip-break. As far as I know, IPF lifters are taught to break at the knees first, which causes the break at the hip at the same time, in a low bar, narrow to medium stance squat. This is how I'm taught at my club as well, and same is taught in our coaching course at Powerlifting Australia. Breaking at the hip first will lead to a chest down & hip rising first when you come out of the hole.

Click to expand...

+1

Dance - good point..
A lot of new lifters to my gym have either shit hip mobility and weak hamstrings or both (blame fail fitness first for all the leg presses and 1/4 squats). The only time i suggest knee break is for them to make depth. Its not that easy to break parallel doing hip break. I suggest grabbing somebody who hasn't trained on squats and find out to prove my point.

Ideally we want both hips and knees very close to each other..

In the AIS coaching course for oly lifters. I asked the same question to the lecturer and they advised its normal to hip-break in PL as u dont have to keep erect vs olympic lifting where u need to knee break to stay erect.

Below is an excerpt from T-nation which proves my point.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/five_ways_to_go_deeper


Typically, an Olympic lifter will knee-break and a powerlifter will hip-break. Why? Because a knee-break squat allows the trunk to stay vertical and the hip-break squat increases the involvement of the hip muscles, which means you can lift more. Olympic lifters want to lift more, but need to keep their trunks vertical, especially in the case of recovering from the snatch. It's pretty hard to counterbalance a few hundred kilos overhead if you have a forward flexed trunk!

Yeah I understand what you said. With ppl who haven't squatted properly before (just trained a new guy like that), they tend to stay too vertical and don't know how to sit back. I fixed my guy by telling him to knee break then giving him a box to sit back to ("tap your arse on this box then go up").

I disagree with the AIS instructor on PL squat. While PL squatters don't have to stay as erect as Oly lifters, the low bar position already ensures that they aren't as erect, and the knee break still applies as they need to keep their chest up. I've seen people put on heaps of kilos by changing from hip break first to knee break first.

I should also state that the knee break in PL squat is very minimal, unlike the knee break in OL squat. You break at the knees a little, then jam the knees out (they don't move much afterwards) and sit straight back. OL squatters sit down and the knees go way forward.

In any case, the important thing is to know that there are two ways and how they affect the squat movement, so that you can help a lifter fix / improve their squat.