Carbon deal tax cuts - What do you think?

I am in business - and as mentioned don't like to get involved in forum politics - but tat-maytals is right.

I'm not strongly for paying more (who is?) but the current liberal models are based on: a) infinite resources (read: fossil fuels) b) infinite ability to store waste. I'm happy to listen to alternatives, but unfortunately the liberal alternative is: Climate change is a farce, fingers in ears, in the face of scientific evidence.

As I said - i'm all ears - something needs to be done. The sooner the better. We need a sustainable and resourceful future, not only for us, but for future generations. (And I don't even have kids - yet).

Not a coincidence:

EXACTLY!

so sick of hearing "old darren the aussie batter from penriff who cant afford the carbon tax."

Industry is too slow to respond to climate change on its own. The only effective means to change this is through taxation. Subsidies don't work, and they are funded through taxation anyway.

The world really is more fuked than the media portrays. It is time for panic stations. The days of fossil fuels need to end. It sucks that people in these industries will suffer... but there is no alternative. Once new industries emerge, hopefully these people can retrain.

The liberals present nothing but emotive argument ad hominem. They critisize the labor govt. but don't offer any alternatives.

Shrek said:

So the miners will get taxed via an Emissions Trading Scheme (Carbon Tax) and via the Super profits tax.

They will take their business elsewhere. They'd be stupid if the didn't.

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What this statement assumes is 2 things:

1. that the mining will no longer be profitable - Myth
2. that there exists other mining opportunities elsewhere which are open for purchase and are cheaper to run than Australian mines post tax... even if this is true, which it may be - set up costs alone make it highly unlikely. You don't abandon a mine in full swing unless costs are out of control. Which they won't be. It's just a beat up in the media by the mining companies... they will still be highly profitable. Even if they go elsewhere another company will form to take over their mine. Mines are under lease, and I assume there is an exit clause for the Govt if the company no longer mines them... i.e, they revoke their lease and sell to any of the millions of other people willing to mine them.

We're not talking about some fragile industry. There is going to be massive demands for coal for at least the next decade. Where there's money to be made someone will step in to make it.

Rambodian said:

Hate to say it, but it's a socialist monarchy we are starting to live in, talk about big overwhelming government. People in the lower income bracket are being misled (to help sell this shit) and will only be taken care of in the initial stages of this tax (maybe 5-8yrs), long term will be a much much different story, if it wasn't it wouldn't work---period! Another thing people in general don't realize is that the policy it self is not designed entirely by Australians for Australians (it's been modified for us), it's mostly the inadequate design of the IPCC and that makes us open to the will of an institution that wants to, and is trying to, make it law to impose it's will and ideology on all word governments (maybe I should of said banana socialist monarchy shees). Then there is the FACT that we didn't friggen want this fuurrken tax anyway.
Unfortunately it seems we will be stuck with this fuuurked policy of over whelming ever increasing tax, as the sheer cost of withdrawing it from the economy once it is up and running will be to great. I hope for the love of all Australians and our future generations that the opposition can some how stop this ridiculous act of socialist, economy destroying, ridiculous act of ideology.

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Dude, stop listening to Alan Jones.

Geez, what rant... whats that old saying...

dont discuss money or politics? :\

Well if you like having a welfare nation good for you, I don't want the government taking more of my money and then giving whatever they think I deserve back to me, it's ridiculous. And what does it end up fixing......Nothing, Australia will keep on increasing its emissions anyway, just outputting ever so slightly less, and nothing in consideration of global scale...its insignificant. So again, why do something the majority of Australians don't want to do and making it even more expensive for our businesses to compete globally, its not rocket science, common sense says its just not bloody worth the cost involved to operate this ridiculous ideology.

Look into how much the tax is predicted to cost you. Middle income earners will be hit with around a $10 increase.

Other companies such as QANTAS have indicated that they will be forced to raise ticket prices.... by a startling $3.50.

All those ad campaigns you've been seeing are just playing to your emotions. How many ads have you seen where they present ANY facts about the tax. NONE. They're all about some immigrant who works for a mine (good for him). Or about how its going to cost the Aussie Battler more money... which it will... $10 per week.

p.s Australia emits more carbon per capita than the US. So no, it's not insignificant.
Australian's have enjoyed such an amazing standard of living for so long... We have running water that you can drink in our homes. We have 24 hour electricity for christs sake. We have commission flats for those who can't afford accomodation... 50% of the world does not have the standard amenity of a commission flat.
Seriously, you need to put this tax in perspective. Pollution is serious. The only way to affect change is to make those responsible pay... just like a fine for drink driving.

Sure have a carbon tax to help the environment it's gonna make a few greenies feel all warm and fuzzy inside. But unless the rest of the world jumps in it's going to be bloody useless.

We produce a lot of carbon pollution. If we don't do something, how can we expect other less advantaged nations to do something? If a guy in a Range Rover told you to walk to work, you'd say get stuffed.

Why bother turning off your tv at the wall? or walk to work? or catch a bus? or switch to E10?... because that's the only thing that will work. Worldwide effort by all individuals. Someone has to be first. It may as well be one of the richest countries, with one of the highest per capita pollution rates...

TheGiftToLift said:

We produce a lot of carbon pollution. If we don't do something, how can we expect other less advantaged nations to do something? If a guy in a Range Rover told you to walk to work, you'd say get stuffed.

Why bother turning off your tv at the wall? or walk to work? or catch a bus? or switch to E10?... because that's the only thing that will work. Worldwide effort by all individuals. Someone has to be first. It may as well be one of the richest countries, with one of the highest per capita pollution rates...

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Last figures I heard were Aus carbon emissions were less than 1% of the total emissions

If other countries don't follow it is a waste of time and just a feel good factor for some people.

I don't turn the tv off at the wall, do you seriously do that??

You're right, I think our emissions are around 1.4%... which doesn't sound like much... but if you consider per capita rate - which is the only rate we should consider, then this is significant. i.e, there are around 21 million people in Aus, and around 7 billion in the world. 1 billion is a thousand million, so Aust represent 21/7000... so thats 0.3%.

So 0.3% of people produce 1-1.4% of the world carbon pollution. Sounds significant don't ya reckon?

TheGiftToLift said:

You're right, I think our emissions are around 1.4%... which doesn't sound like much... but if you consider per capita rate - which is the only rate we should consider, then this is significant. i.e, there are around 21 million people in Aus, and around 7 billion in the world. 1 billion is a thousand million, so Aust represent 21/7000... so thats 0.3%.

So 0.3% of people produce 1-1.4% of the world carbon pollution. Sounds significant don't ya reckon?

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No I don't. Total emissions are the problem. And our total emissions are a blip on the world scale. What we do isn't going to make a difference if other countries don't follow.

I am nonplussed by your post.

of course it matters. they can't follow if nobody leads.

TheGiftToLift said:

I am nonplussed by your post.

of course it matters. they can't follow if nobody leads.

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I don't expect you to be

So what happens if no one follows.

good question.

I think that we are at the stage now where the time for talk is over. Yes, other countries pollute more, but I think that in this context the term "country" is outdated. We need to think in terms of the individual. It is the consumer that will decide whether we tackle climate change or not. As such, and on an individual basis - Australians consume a shit load.

I see your point about what will happen if nobody else follows. Well, I think what will happen is that people will begin to immigrate on mass to 1st world countries where they can. I think world hunger will increase, diseases of the respiratory system will increase, sea-levels will rise and we will be thoroughly rooted. So lets hope they do. Sadly, even in a country like ours people resist positive changes towards preventing further climate change. We are talking about $10 a week... What hope do we have. I hope people change their minds.

But you know if we don't change, how can we expect other countries with low education rates and large scale poverty to change?

Another thing... there are around 200 countries in the world... so we produce 2x our share if we produce 1%. So on a country and a per capita basis we are bad. Maybe not the worst, but still bad.

The crux of the argument is sound. No one will follow if nobody leads.

All this is leading to is a stalemate. Why does Australia always have to be the sheep? We could be innovators, and stay well ahead of the curve.

The US will be stuck for quite some time under their highly intelligent republicans who think God is responsible for climate change and the control of it (this is not a joke - look up Bill O'reilly on youtube and see for yourself).

Also, the gift to life is entirely correct. DO NOT listen to Alan Jones OR Andrew Bolt. All of their tirades are fear mongering, hate inciting bullshit, none of which is evidence based. The decisions we make should be that of a secular society - with evidence, with science. Not with hearsay, faith, prejudice and bias.

And Australia will lead the world will they Pffft.

What we save in carbon pollution in a year China and India will put back in 5 days, and they are growing at a huge rate, India have a carbon price its $1 per tone.

And how will anything change when our companies will be forced to simply buy carbon credits from overseas from county's planting imaginary forest plantations.
Yep send billions of our dollars overseas for a piece of paper that says its ok for you to spit out the carbon you always did, pass the cost on to us.
The only winner's will be overseas, Oh and our government who will look great to the UN.

The one good thing that will come from this is this will be the end of the labour party for a generation

Please!!

emm said:

And Australia will lead the world will they Pffft.

What we save in carbon pollution in a year China and India will put back in 5 days, and they are growing at a huge rate, India have a carbon price its $1 per tone.

And how will anything change when our companies will be forced to simply buy carbon credits from overseas from county's planting imaginary forest plantations.
Yep send billions of our dollars overseas for a piece of paper that says its ok for you to spit out the carbon you always did, pass the cost on to us.
The only winner's will be overseas, Oh and our government who will look great to the UN.

The one good thing that will come from this is this will be the end of the labour party for a generation

Please!!

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you clearly have no idea about the carbon tax at all.

. Even if my house was carbon netural i still would pay the tax which is sht. They should go of what people/business use per year and make them lower it each year and tax them if they fail to met the level per year . But time will tell if it is going to work i guess