Bench Press: Avoiding Shoulder Injuries

While Im not trying to argue , the picture you have used is of Adam Coe. Here is what he said

arcoe960 said:

Semi-early benchpressing style at the Oceania Championships, Ballarat, Victoria. Power Station Nightclub, if memory serves correctly, end-1989. Widened grip later with better results. I think Robert Wilks Head-Reffing....

Click to expand...

Now Im sure that he is referring to better number when he says "better results" not shoulder health, but an point none the less. Id like to know how much wider he went, and if he had any shoulder issues.
Maybe we should ask him (or even spricha as his grip looks wide) also about this issue.

Good work on getting an answer from rip too!

A wider grip will naturally give 'better results' as the bar travels less distance. I'm not too concerned about milking an extra 5-10kg from my bench press, simply lasting in weight training.

I agree mate.
I have put it to adam and steve in their thread. Im quite interested in their response .

I got a good tip... dont do single handed barbell roll outs... will stuff ya shoulder for sure and ull bench like a little girl like me for the rest of your life.

Yeah your right, close to double body weight raw bench sucks!

dont do single handed barbell roll outs..

Click to expand...

Yeah I doubt I will have an issue there.

180sx kid said:

I got a good tip... dont do single handed barbell roll outs... will stuff ya shoulder for sure and ull bench like a little girl like me for the rest of your life.

Click to expand...

Especially before a comp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Adam benched over 230kg from memory with his close grip. Maybe more

When you guys do that, feel free to widen it and seek better results

An interesting thing happened at PTC last night, with regards to advice from someone.

I dont want to embarass that person so I'll leave it there, but the person giving the advice was only benching 10kg more than the receiver when I met him, and the 2 arent even the same gender lol

Markos, part of your point is valid, but since the implied premise is that you have to lift more before giving advices or finding an alternative that works best for yourself, then there are dozens of guys at PTC that shouldn't listen to your advice on the deadlift, because you deadlift less than they do. In fact, most elite lifters shouldn't listen to their coaches if that were the case.

Dancelot said:

Markos, part of your point is valid, but since the implied premise is that you have to lift more before giving advices or finding an alternative that works best for yourself, then there are dozens of guys at PTC that shouldn't listen to your advice on the deadlift, because you deadlift less than they do. In fact, most elite lifters shouldn't listen to their coaches if that were the case.

Click to expand...

This is a very good post.

A good coach knows what a trainee needs to garner the required result.

As far as deadlifting goes, I have openly stated that I hurt my back doing cable rows in 1988. At the time I was deadlifting 212.5kg and squatting 160kg.

I could no longer deadlift, but ended up squatting 205kg, so I guess my deadlift would have been quite a bit higher. Either way, people usually shut up when I bent rowed 150kg or did chins with 40kg.

Your comment is stupid as you know very little about me

Now, when a guy who missed a 70kg bench press in competition is giving bench advice to a girl who benches 60kg, its time for a chuckle.

It may not seem funny to you, but it was to us.

Now, back on the coaching thing.

I reckon my best lifts are okay, injury aside. My worth as a coach should be measured by how many lifters I can make stronger than me. Admittedly my own lifts need to have been okay in the first place.

Are you saying my lifts arent good enough Dancer?

Sorry don't know the injury history with your back.

No I'm not questioning your lifts, just your argument. I used your lifts as example for a logical reasoning method. And you know I have great respect for you as a coach, because I was inspired by PTC lifters to get into powerlifting. However, on the forum, you're quite quick to use the "you know very little about me so don't comment" card when people question your argument, even in when that's done in a polite friendly manner. You should consider that it's because people have respect for what you have to say in general that they take you seriously enough to debate with you. If it were some nobody posting that, most of us would just ignore him.

Your argument is this: narrow grips are fine for everyone, because Adam Coe benched 230kg with narrow grips, and until lifters can beat that, we should all shut up and stop trying to widen our grips for better results.

That's some basic logic fail there, but apart from that, not all of us have the same leverage as Adam and may bench better with different grips. I'm using a wider grip (not very wide by powerlifting standard, I have my ring fingers on the rings) not because I'm fvcking around with grips. It's because four different powerlifting coaches (two seniors, two juniors) have told me to, after seeing me bench close up, and while none of them personally benches as much as Adam, they have coached lifters who bench as much or more. It'd be stupid of me to ignore them, don't you think?

Even without the coaches' opinion, you yourself have written something along the line of every lifter being different and we should figure out what works best for us instead of blindly copying others.

You lift for a very different reason than my PTC clients.

We lift to get stronger, you lift to move more weight.

I know all about increasing leverages, just as I know all about getting stronger.

In Adams thread, I asked Scott to explain to Adam WHY he lifts

Do you know the difference?

Thats why Konstantinov will always be revered at PTC

PTC said:

You lift for a very different reason than my PTC clients.

We lift to get stronger, you lift to move more weight.

Do you know the difference?

Click to expand...

I can't see any difference. Are we redefining strong now?

Besides, Adam - the one you used as example for your argument - definitely lifted to move more weight as he was a competitive powerlifter. Maybe we can now say he didn't lift to get stronger?

If I improve my squat technique and therefore am able to squat more weight, have I got stronger?

I'd say yes, because I'm now able to recruit my muscles and utilise my leverage better to lift more weight. Objectively I have more weights on the bar to prove that I got stronger.

If Tom benches more than Harry in the same competition because Tom has better technique, objectively, Tom is stronger because he can lift more weight. That is unless you intend to give the prize to Harry because you think he's stronger despite benching less.

If someone totals more than you in a powerlifting meet because he has better techniques, do people believe that you're still stronger? Do you go around telling people you're stronger? No, you lifted less than him, you're not as strong.

Now if we're arguing longevity in the sports and one style being more prone to injuries than the other, that's a completely different argument. But this is so far inconclusive and has not been proven yet.

Here's Adam telling us to pick a bench press grip width (just like squat and deadlift stances) to suit our personal preference through trials & errors.

Ausbb - Australian BodyBuilding - View Single Post - Adam Coe

Plus he also said he got a better result for himself by using a wider grip.

So I'm guessing he won't make fun of our wider grip bench press because we can't bench as much as his best narrow grip bench.

Lol, I was trying to stay out of this thread now .
Markos, you are right. My grip moved out and legs were brought into the equation so that my body could proform the exercise as efficiently as possible.

I did this through a coach. This guy has benched 233kg at under 90kg, and has made it to CAPOs top 10 greatest bench press of all time. I would be mad NOT to take his advice, agreed?
My best bench was 107.5kg, touch and go. Piss poor.
After about a month it was time for nationals. I went 105- missed 110- 110.

You would be correct here to say I lifted more weight than my old best, but it's not because I was stronger, but more because I proformed the lift more efficiently. I gained 2.5-5kg from technique.

Since then I have bench 115kg, and failed 117.5kg in comp. That's was because I have gotten stronger. Not because I've become more efficient.
My next comp is less than 1 month away, and I plan to have a good crack at 120kg or 1.5x bodyweight.

Your argument that I train to lift more amd not to get stronger seems null and void to me, and one that I find a little belittling to be honest. I'm not sure if that's your intention, but that's how it's coming across. I lift to get stronger and always break PB's...... No matter how small they seem to you or anybody else.

I think we will always dissagree on when and what grip to use.
You seem to think get as strong as possible then change
Ive been taught get the technique right then get strong.

Dancelot said:

If I improve my squat technique and therefore am able to squat more weight, have I got stronger?

Click to expand...

Not in the sense that you are increasing muscle tissue or improving the ability of your cns. You have used a more efficient movement or minimised the ROM, neither of which makes you stronger in the physiological sense.

Coach Peter at SSS used this point a fair few times while I was there:

People only ever ask you how much you lift, not how long did it take or how far did you lift it.

Edit: Just for shits and giggles, he smokes this

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9qca-qK6UE[/ame]

it must be understood that the number of repetitions is meaningful only if the style of performance and speed-of-movement remain unchanged… the form and speed must not change from workout to workout, and if they do, then your charting figures are meaningless.

SECONDLY… it must also be understood that changing the order of your exercises will also appear to affect your strength. How many repetitions you can perform with a given amount of resistance depends to some degree upon what other exercises you have done previously during that same workout.

If you have been doing a set of ‘chinning' movements followed by a set of curls, and if you reverse the order of these exercises… then it will appear that you have become stronger in the curls and weaker in the chinning movements. When, in fact, no actual change in strength has occurred.

Highly motivated trainees, in a natural desire to show progress, will have to be watched closely to prevent them from slipping into the bad habits of poor form or too rapid movement… and that situation will be helped somewhat if the importance of form and speed is understood by the trainee, and if no emphasis is given to ‘testing.'

An apparent (but misleading) reduction in strength occurs when a slow-speed-of-movement is used because the actual ‘time of contraction'… or ‘time of force production'… is a factor in strength.

A formula might be designed to show that a muscle can produce… X force for Y time.

And when that relationship of force to time is understood, it becomes obvious that slower movement will appear to reduce strength… because, if one part of the equation is increased, then the other part must be reduced to compensate for it.

If, for example, you are capable of performing 10 repetitions in a bench-press with 115kg... and if your normal speed-of-movement is such that you spend a half of a second raising the weight, and another half-second lowering the weight… then it would take you ten seconds to perform 10 repetitions. During which exercise your muscles would be required to produce approximately 115kg of force for ten seconds.

But if you use the same weight, and if you perform only one repetition but do so very slowly… then it might take you five seconds to lift the weight and another five seconds to lower the weight; which means that the ‘time of contraction' of your muscles was as great for one repetition performed slowly as it was for 10 repetitions performed rapidly… and you can be very sure that you will not be able to do 10 repetitions at that greatly reduced speed.

At first glance, if the formula is understood, you might expect to be able to do only one repetition at such a slow speed… but in practice, you could probably do two or three repetitions. The apparent paradox in the results produced by practical application of this formula results from the fact that other factors are involved… factors that have not been given consideration in the formula.

But all that is necessary to understand is that a slow speed of movement will reduce the possible number of repetitions.

Efficient technique to lift more or a more inefficient technique to get stronger. Your muscles work harder in the ineffcient method (to a degree i.e. Swiss ball benches) so you get stronger than you would with an efficient technique. Problem is you lift less in the end. So it is your choice. You could lift inefficiently in training and then slowly integrate use of the efficient technique when you get closer to a comp.

But then you have motor learning issues of not using the same technique as often etc etc.

Everyone must excuse me because I didnt read the responses. I just want to add this.

Over in the bodybuilding section we ridicule everyone that does a double split, emulating the greatest pro bodybuilders of our time. We ridicule them because they should be emulating what they were doing at the same stage, which was not a double split.

Powerlifters are no different. Dont judge Adams lifts AFTER he benched 230kg, emulate what he was doing at the same stage you are currently at.

Adam is the greatest Australian powerlifter ever.

I watched him train, we lifted side by side. He benched with a narrow grip, no arch to speak of, and he benched 500lbs raw at under 200lb bodyweight.

Thats a fair goal for anyone that ever touches a barbell. What he did AFTER he became that good is of no consequence to most of us currently, just like the double split.

I get sick of reading about guys benching 100kg modifying their technique to lift more weight. How about simply getting stronger.

Dancer, you clearly dont understand the difference between improving leverages and just plain getting stronger. I'm not redifining strong.

You know the story about Tim from PA (800kg total), who came to my Strongman comp and couldnt clean & press my Blue DB. Daryl, weighing 30kg less, did it for reps.First time he ever picked it up. Shorty was shocked when he witnessed that. Tim also, at 100kg, could not pick up my 93kg Atlas Stone. Little nicky, at 70kg, picked it up easily.

Strong is strong.

Do you know the difference.

Low bar wide stance squats improve your leverage, as it limits your depth. High bar Olympic squats make you strong.

Wide grip high arch belly benching allows you to bench more by greatly reducing the ROM.

Close grip benching makes you stronger, everywhere.

You've been lifting for 5 minutes, and gone straight into a sport before you cleared the novice range. Thats not a problem at all, in fact its a good thing.

But please dont pretend you understand STRENGTH because an equipped PL showed you how to move more weight.

Powerlifting is a sport, not a form of exercise, it makes sense to improve leverages.

My style of training allowed my clients to go to the States for the first time, and win the Open, Junior and Womens section, with second in the Teenage, all by lifters who had simply trained to get stronger. Aside from Nick, who didnt win, nobody used wide stance low bar squats, sumo deadlifts or wide grip arched benching.

Plenty of others did.

Take the blinkers off Dancer, PA gyms dont know everything