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View Full Version : School Shooting Claims 27 lives



kaz
15-12-2012, 05:05 AM
AT LEAST 27 people, including 14 children, were killed Friday in a shooting at an elementary school in Connecticut, CBS News reported.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/14/us/connecticut-school-shooting/index.html

beez
15-12-2012, 06:48 AM
Seriously f*cked up.

Neddysmith
15-12-2012, 06:50 AM
Seriously f*cked up.

Pretty much this and I was reading a whole classroom of kindergarten kids missing....:(:(

Disco Duck
15-12-2012, 07:07 AM
The "right" to bear arms strikes again. Ridiculously outdated amendment that puts weapons in the hands of lunatics. Absolutely heartbreaking...

chocchillimango
15-12-2012, 07:16 AM
The "right" to bear arms strikes again. Ridiculously outdated amendment that puts weapons in the hands of lunatics. Absolutely heartbreaking...

100% Nobody should have the "right to bear arms" as a constitutional right.
That right only comes if you've earned it.
Or you're actually a bear.

I doubt americans will ever learn. This amendment to their constitution was a fail from day one.

kaz
15-12-2012, 07:18 AM
No-one deserves to be targeted like this. :(

harry1970
15-12-2012, 08:23 AM
Unfortunately this will continue as long as their gun laws remain. Tragic, makes you think the world is a fucked up place. Innocent kids. RIP.

jj80
15-12-2012, 09:19 AM
holy shit it's comical now. Guns don't kill people I guess? You sure?

1 good thing about Howard - he manned up after the Martin Bryant tragedy and took away semis.

Franco
15-12-2012, 09:26 AM
The killer would have killed some folks anyway with another weapon, but nowhere near the number he took out. Its truly sickening massacring that many young children for no reason at all.

jj80
15-12-2012, 09:34 AM
Every 6 months.

With regularity.

Stiffy
15-12-2012, 09:41 AM
Someone commented on Twitter: "I wish mental health care was as easy to obtain as a gun (in the U.S.)".

Probably goes further than just mental health care though, there has to be bad character involved to kill 20 innocent kids, but the original quote has merit, especially in the U.S.

Brick
15-12-2012, 09:42 AM
There is a big problem there in America and it isn't gun control.

Why aren't they looking at the broader social problems that make so many of their young men flip out and start shooting. Look at the root cause of their actions, taking their guns is just a bandaid on a massive social problem.

Youth with mental illness is the problem, not their access to weapons.

Plenty of places in the world with free access to firearms and very little gun violence.

sookie
15-12-2012, 10:04 AM
If you want to kill yourself. Kill yourself first

IRON TANKS
15-12-2012, 11:40 AM
Waiting for the idiot brigade who generally spout, 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. Yeah,that's right. People don't kill people, the entropy of the universe does. Real f*cking useful stuff that is.

RIP to those affected.

But it is true - as fluffy says, there's deeper social roots to the cause of these problems. Lax gun control doesn't help!

KungFooGoo
15-12-2012, 12:08 PM
If you want to kill yourself. Kill yourself first

This is what pisses me off nearly as much as them topping other people. If you're going to do it let someone catch you and end your life getting but fucked for the next 25 years in jail. You're a coward for shooting un armed people, kids in particular and then you just a ****** for topping yourself after...

KungFooGoo
15-12-2012, 01:58 PM
It's not just Americans..... This also happened on the same day:

Knife attack at Chinese school wounds 22 children - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/)

Knife attack wounds 22 kids.

chocchillimango
15-12-2012, 02:05 PM
There is a big problem there in America and it isn't gun control.

Why aren't they looking at the broader social problems that make so many of their young men flip out and start shooting. Look at the root cause of their actions, taking their guns is just a bandaid on a massive social problem.

Youth with mental illness is the problem, not their access to weapons.

Plenty of places in the world with free access to firearms and very little gun violence.

there's a lot of truth to this.
They still haven't sorted out their basic healthcare in the US and haven't even started to think about tackling mental illness and healthcare for those affected.
More fundamentally, the social issues that can trigger mental illness or in other ways lead people to despair and acts of violence, are a world away from being resolved.
There is still a national sense of denial that there is anything wrong with US society (not that we are looking all that much better but relatively speaking ....)

Often the guys committing these atrocities are just as much victims as the people they kill and injure and the families left to mourn.

There's just no good that comes of it because considered action is never taken. Politics and lobbyists will out.

KungFooGoo
15-12-2012, 03:02 PM
Just saw this on good old face book. Well said sir :

This year 49 children in a Syrian school get shot with their hands bound behind their backs and around 20,000 children starve to death every day. But another shooting in the US makes headlines again and all of a sudden everyone cares. Oh and ofcourse it's Obama's fault again? Pfft

RedDog
15-12-2012, 03:33 PM
Often the guys committing these atrocities are just as much victims as the people they kill and injure and the families left to mourn.



Victims or not there is no excuse for this shit. I agree though there needs to be more done in the way of mental health and gun laws

chocchillimango
15-12-2012, 03:45 PM
Just saw this on good old face book. Well said sir :

This year 49 children in a Syrian school get shot with their hands bound behind their backs and around 20,000 children starve to death every day. But another shooting in the US makes headlines again and all of a sudden everyone cares. Oh and ofcourse it's Obama's fault again? Pfft


hmmm yes, somehow it's easy to forget the millions displaced, killed, injured and whose lives have been irrevocably damaged, if not lost, in wars and through cultural/civil/<insert appropriate term> unrest ...

first world problems.

both are BAD. and not Obama's fault.

The Hamburgler
15-12-2012, 04:00 PM
Just saw this on good old face book. Well said sir :

This year 49 children in a Syrian school get shot with their hands bound behind their backs and around 20,000 children starve to death every day. But another shooting in the US makes headlines again and all of a sudden everyone cares. Oh and ofcourse it's Obama's fault again? Pfft



Not to mention how many alcohol related deaths there are every year without people doing jumping jacks to ban grog

Stiffy
15-12-2012, 06:03 PM
President Obama Cries Reading Statement On The Connecticut School Shooting Massacre - YouTube

Jungnaut
15-12-2012, 07:29 PM
I honestly cannot fathom what goes on a killer's mind to take other people's lives like that. Did he drop some acid? Ate some bath salts? Played with a ouji board? Inhumane.

IRON TANKS
16-12-2012, 05:11 PM
Also interesting to see what Morgan Freeman had to say about it, along the lines of what Fluffy said!

Stiffy
16-12-2012, 05:19 PM
Also interesting to see what Morgan Freeman had to say about it, along the lines of what Fluffy said!
theres reports that his supposed statements are a hoax, that it wasn't really him:

Morgan Freeman’s Newtown ‘Statement’ Almost Definitely A Hoax (http://www.inquisitr.com/440462/morgan-freemans-newtown-statement-almost-definitely-a-hoax/)

The Hamburgler
16-12-2012, 05:55 PM
Whoever said it was pretty much spot on regardless

IRON TANKS
16-12-2012, 06:08 PM
That's interesting, Morgan has said some pretty profound shit regardless!

Bella
16-12-2012, 06:23 PM
Background on gunman : Huffington Post

Nancy Lanza took her son, Adam, to a shooting range and taught him how to use a firearm before he turned a gun on her and shot her dead, then executed more than two dozen terrified children and teachers at an elementary school.

Fifty-two-year-old Nancy Lanza was an avid gun collector who had legally purchased five firearms, all registered in Connecticut, according to police records.

'She said she would often go target shooting with her kids,' Dan Holmes, owner of the lanscaping firm Holmes Fine Gardens, told Reuters.
He recalled that she once showed him a 'high-end rifle' that she had purchased.

Adam killed his mother in the home they shared on Friday morning by shooting her in the face using one of her own guns.

Adam then allegedly took his mother's car keys and several guns belonging to her - including a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both pistols, and a .223 caliber rifle - and drove her car to Sandy Hook Elementary School, where he massacred 20 children and six adults, before shooting himself.

Shrek
16-12-2012, 06:39 PM
That's interesting, Morgan has said some pretty profound shit regardless!

He certainly has. Nothing would surprise me with Morgan

benno
16-12-2012, 11:32 PM
It's not just Americans..... This also happened on the same day:

Knife attack at Chinese school wounds 22 children - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/)

Knife attack wounds 22 kids.

Ban knives!!

Big Mick
17-12-2012, 12:41 AM
This is soo sad and tragic I can not even imagine it, I wish I was there to help somehow to try and stop this person, he is/was pure evil, killing innocent children and tearing families apart for ever, no parent should have to go through this ever.:mad:

However I don't believe that gun control is the main issue that needs addressing here, it's a mental health issue that these people do not get weeded out before it happens.

Guns are neither good or evil, there are no good guns and there are no bad guns, guns just are, there are only good and bad people.

Any gun in the hands of a bad man is a very bad thing, a gun in the hands of a good person is no thread to anyone except to bad people.

Consider that most farmers own several guns and use them almost daily, and that police carry guns on our streets 24 hours a day, it's not the gun that is the issue it's the person holding it.

Just my 2 cents worth

taurus
17-12-2012, 05:49 AM
I know they'll never ban guns over there, but maybe a gun amnesty might help! Having lived in the states, it's a very passionate argument that a non-American will never win! Lol

I heard the stats about Australia's gun amnesty and firearm suicides went down 74% and firearm homicide has dropped 54%. It just takes away the temptation of using a gun when it's not at arms reach. Might give people time to think, ' nah it's not worth it' and save a life. Just my two cents!

Bradders
17-12-2012, 06:34 AM
This is soo sad and tragic I can not even imagine it, I wish I was there to help somehow to try and stop this person, he is/was pure evil, killing innocent children and tearing families apart for ever, no parent should have to go through this ever.:mad:

However I don't believe that gun control is the main issue that needs addressing here, it's a mental health issue that these people do not get weeded out before it happens.

Guns are neither good or evil, there are no good guns and there are no bad guns, guns just are, there are only good and bad people.

Any gun in the hands of a bad man is a very bad thing, a gun in the hands of a good person is no thread to anyone except to bad people.

Consider that most farmers own several guns and use them almost daily, and that police carry guns on our streets 24 hours a day, it's not the gun that is the issue it's the person holding it.

Just my 2 cents worth

Agreed that guns are nit good or bad, but why does the average citizen have access to automatic weapons?? And super high powered rifles that's what I don't get..

This is a mental health issue.. I wonder is our current state of the world creating more nut jobs than we did 50 years ago or do we just hear about them more now

jj80
17-12-2012, 09:04 AM
Most people who believe the problem is an solely an underlying social issue haven't met or dealt with somebody who's mentally ill. I mean really really mentally ill. Even pretty good societies churn out crazies and a few always slip through the net (Martin Bryant).

I've had the pleasure of knowing one and the idea of them with a gun... christ.

But yeah feel free to keep advocating gun rights for all while people with 1 or 2 screws loose mow down kids in schools.

Big Mick
17-12-2012, 11:21 AM
Agreed that guns are nit good or bad, but why does the average citizen have access to automatic weapons?? And super high powered rifles that's what I don't get..

Well high powered rifles are needed for hunting, to ensure humane kills of the animal hunted, in most places laws stipulate a minimum caliber for certain species of game, in Australia for example it is illegal to hunt deer with anything smaller than a .243 caliber rifle (still medium powered rifle, jet a lot bigger than the low powered (by comparison) fox/rabbit hunting rifle used in Connecticut)

Automatic weapons have been restricted in Connecticut since 1993.

Blaming guns for what has happened here is like blaming cars for the road toll and McDonald's for fat people, it's a ridiculous argument, it has nothing to do with cars, guns or McDonald's its an education, training, mental health, social and people issue.

May be we need a better system to asses people with issues before handing out Firearms permits, but that just means people will find other means, such as a drum of fertiliser bought at Bunnings mixed with diesel fuel from the local servo.

202 innocent people murdered and not a firearm in sight:

2002 Bali bombings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings)

It's easy for people un educated in guns and gun laws and governments to take the easy option and blame guns, gun laws and law abiding gun owners for what has happened here, rather than address the real issues involved.

jj80
17-12-2012, 02:31 PM
edit: I cbf

lex
17-12-2012, 02:43 PM
problem is assault weapons. Absolutely zero need for civilian use.
Allow rifles, pistols and shot guns to properly licensed and trained people who have a need for them.

If necessary have a special rural license for farmers for rifles.

Brick
17-12-2012, 03:15 PM
This is so stupid, yeah lets blame easy access to firearms for all these school shootings.

Has anyone noticed all these ****s doing the shootings are cast from exactly the same mould, middle class, late teens early twenties, white, shitty social skills. Fuck could it be any easier to pinpoint the demographioc that needs attention.

As for banning semi autos not sure exactly what that would achieve it wouldn't have been any harder for him to kill that many unarmed kids with a garden variety .223 bolt actions.

Do you people realise how many .223, .222 and the like live in suburban gun safes in this country but we don't have school massacres here, why because this country isn't full of retarded middle class morons that have been conditioned to think the only way they can leave a legacy is by been in the news for five fucking minutes.

America and a large part of their population is fucked not because of their gun laws but because their education system keeps churning out these monsters.

jj80
17-12-2012, 03:33 PM
No one is saying ignore the social issues.

But there will still be unstable people in society, why make it easier for them to go postal? Not all mental issues are society's fault, some of them are genetic.

Brick
17-12-2012, 03:39 PM
No one is saying ignore the social issues.

But there will still be unstable people in society, why make it easier for them to go postal? Not all mental issues are society's fault, some of them are genetic.

Yeah but in this case it is all same gender, roughly same age, same race, fucking all look the same (skinny weaklings). Yes all societies have unstable people but these ****s are all almost identical. Look at em the batman shooter, columbine, this guy. I think the virgina tech guy might have been asian but ticked all the other boxes.

Its freaky, there is a massive problem only in that age group & social pecking order. Its not an issue with gun control its crazy motherfuckers who fit that specific mould. So its totally a social issue.

Maybe you could blame their generally high murder rate on easily accessible fire arms, more likely the thriving drug problem caused by neighbouring narco states, but these massacres are a phenomenon within that specific group of people.

harry1970
17-12-2012, 03:56 PM
Maybe we need to get Iraq to invade the USA to remove these weapons of mass destruction....:rolleyes:

When the gun lobby pull out the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" line they should be forced to change it to "guns don't kill people, Americans kill people".

jj80
17-12-2012, 04:02 PM
I don't know the guys involved but it's just as possible some of them were just plain fucked in the head, which would explain why they had trouble developing social skills and I think better explain their chosen courses of action. A combination of the two, at least...

I remember school being a bit of a fight for survival, in America it sure looks 100 times worse, with jock/bulling culture being a point of pride in some schools. Initiation routines, etc... I can see all this pushing a borderline personality who might otherwise graduate uneventfully over the edge.

But I also believe some people are just flat out insane and it's not society's fault. For these people, and until we fix the schools, I see nothing wrong with tightening up gun control laws. Sorry, no sympathy to the hobbyists when people are dying.

Undercover
17-12-2012, 04:56 PM
Watched a few US shows on Foxtel over the weekend, heaps of red neck reality shows. (Moonshiners, I survived, addicted, Bio channel stuff). The mentally of most of them was my gun saved my life. Taking the guns of these people (mainly rural/country hicks) would start a civil war in the US.

Even the Top Gear episode were the guys drove through Alabama with slogans such as "Hillary for president" and "NASCAR sucks" and "I'm bi" showed the mentality of some of the folk when an F150 truck rocked up with rifles and chased the guys/crew.

The Hamburgler
17-12-2012, 07:24 PM
Maybe we need to get Iraq to invade the USA to remove these weapons of mass destruction....:rolleyes:

When the gun lobby pull out the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" line they should be forced to change it to "guns don't kill people, Americans kill people".

Has a gun ever stood trial for murder?

Fwiw there are ten times as many alcohol related deaths than firearm related deaths in the US each year

Btw does anyone know Norway's gun laws?

vonfram88
17-12-2012, 08:49 PM
It's disheartening watching the anti-firearms brigade (usually greens and left-wing lentil eating extremists) once again turn a human tragedy into a political opportunity.

The spirit of the United States is to be resilient and to meet force with force. Pearl Harbour, 9/11, Independence. Radical reform of firearms law in the USA will not happen.

It's amusing seeing online polls here in Australia asking if gun laws in the USA ought to be changed. A bit like asking; do you think the moon should be made of fairy floss?

beez
17-12-2012, 09:33 PM
they have to make it much harder to get a gun at least. Should be a privilege not a right. Having more people armed as suggested will end in much more deaths rather then preventing them.

jj80
17-12-2012, 09:43 PM
It's disheartening watching the anti-firearms brigade (usually greens and left-wing lentil eating extremists) once again turn a human tragedy into a political opportunity.

The spirit of the United States is to be resilient and to meet force with force. Pearl Harbour, 9/11, Independence. Radical reform of firearms law in the USA will not happen.

It's amusing seeing online polls here in Australia asking if gun laws in the USA ought to be changed. A bit like asking; do you think the moon should be made of fairy floss?

Rather than name calling please tell me your argument as to why guns should be accessible to every person, including those who are dangerous cause they're (forgive the lack of a specific and accurate psychiatric diagnosis) fucking insane?

You've seen some years Von, surely you've come across people in your life who you are perhaps glad don't own or have access to firearms.

vonfram88
17-12-2012, 11:02 PM
Rather than name calling please tell me your argument as to why guns should be accessible to every person, including those who are dangerous cause they're (forgive the lack of a specific and accurate psychiatric diagnosis) fucking insane?

You've seen some years Von, surely you've come across people in your life who you are perhaps glad don't own or have access to firearms.

I'll name call and continue to belittle the obsessive, inconsiderate types who have no respect for human dignity. there has been a tragedy and it's not the time to play political football.

jj80
17-12-2012, 11:30 PM
troll

\/\/ I've owned guns, and while we r being smart and name calling, ur a BIG STUPID.

vonfram88
18-12-2012, 10:40 AM
troll

Hoplophobe

jamesyboi
18-12-2012, 03:45 PM
1 good thing about Howard - he manned up after the Martin Bryant tragedy and took away semis.

This.

I don't know why they need semis over in USA.

Does a deer shoot back or throw grenades?

jj80
18-12-2012, 04:37 PM
This.

I don't know why they need semis over in USA.

Does a deer shoot back or throw grenades?

I think a semi auto weapon might actually be pretty useful if one was charging you, though I believe they mostly run from people

On the gun issue - I don't believe you can prove 100% that the incidents that occurred recently in America are not just the result of a culture that alienates and often victimises young people.

On global warming - I'm not aware of any evidence at the moment that proves global warming is occurring and we are on a fast track to an environmental disaster.

In both of these issues, there are parties with vested interests (gun owners, companies polluting the air, etc.) that demand evidence before you take away what they own. For this reason I highly doubt Obama will be able to take any action next week.

I think when you discuss and think about gun ownership it's not worth the risk, but I don't think anyone is interested in really doing that here. I find insanity and its variants very interesting, and I believe there are certain mental make ups that give rise to very dangerous people, and the existence of these people are why we should be thankful here we have pretty strict firearm laws.

Big Mick
18-12-2012, 05:08 PM
Blaming gun laws and gun ownership is like putting a band aid on skin cancer, it might cover it up and hide the issue for a while but will do nothing to cure the problem.

I live in a remote rural community where there are more guns than people, everyone around me owns and carries guns on a daily basis, yet my kids can be playing outside without a single worry in the world...apart from the odd snake may be.

And yes many around here are licensed for semi automatic high powered rifles (Category H license available in Australia), yet I still feel safer there than when I was living in Sydney where my kids were not allowed out of my sight.

So again it is NOT a gun issue its a social, mental health etc etc issue.

If it was a gun issue I would have reson to be concerned that every one of my neighbours owns high powered rifles, many being semi automatic and high powered,but it does not concern me at all to see my neighbour carry his high powered semi automatic rifle to his car to go to work for the day or night.

Why semi Automatic??? Time is money, more kills on feral animals in less time and more effectively, this is why farmers are still allowed to own these here. Feral Wild pigs are out of control around here, with farmers often shooting 100-200 within a few hours of a single day.

stevematic
18-12-2012, 05:31 PM
holy shit it's comical now. Guns don't kill people I guess? You sure?

1 good thing about Howard - he manned up after the Martin Bryant tragedy and took away semis.

Yeah from law abiding citizens. Martin Bryant got his illegally.

Funny how the US's gun ownership has been rising but their murder's have dropped by half in the past twenty years.

7500 handgun are used each year in crimes in the US, there's apparently 77 million of them. Let's disarm the 99.991% that obey the law.

Rifles only account for I believe 3% (maybe 4%) of their crime, let's disarm the other 97%!

jj80
18-12-2012, 05:39 PM
edit: fuck it I couldn't be bothered. You people just keep stating the same shit which I've addressed without addressing what I've said.

stevematic
18-12-2012, 06:20 PM
edit: fuck it I couldn't be bothered. You people just keep stating the same shit which I've addressed without addressing what I've said.

Pot meet kettle.

jj80
18-12-2012, 06:24 PM
no no no

stevematic
18-12-2012, 06:34 PM
The assault weapons ban in the US ran from '94-'04, one of the guns the Columbine kids used was on the list.

That weapon ban clearly solved the issue.

vonfram88
19-12-2012, 01:09 AM
On the gun issue - I don't believe you can prove 100% that the incidents that occurred recently in America are not just the result of a culture that alienates and often victimises young people.

On global warming - I'm not aware of any evidence at the moment that proves global warming is occurring and we are on a fast track to an environmental disaster.

.

I am about to die from an acute dose of cognitive dissonance.

How can you be a climate change skeptic and not be a gun-toting redneck?

Stiffy
19-12-2012, 05:46 AM
Von, whatever your self interest in this matter the fact remains, guns in the hands of the deranged or those who would use them (guns) for purposes we just recently saw and have continually seen in the U.S. has to be stopped. If you don't agree with that or are just trying to circle jerk then you are not worth the effort of even replying too. Merry Xmas to you and yours.

Darkoz
19-12-2012, 06:56 AM
More guns, ban people

beez
19-12-2012, 07:57 AM
I like how more people are in support of guns then they are of refugees.

Big Mick
19-12-2012, 03:46 PM
Von, whatever your self interest in this matter the fact remains, guns in the hands of the deranged or those who would use them (guns) for purposes we just recently saw and have continually seen in the U.S. has to be stopped. If you don't agree with that or are just trying to circle jerk then you are not worth the effort of even replying too. Merry Xmas to you and yours.

I think you are missing the point people are trying to make, and yet you mention it in your reply.

Who said we should give guns to deranged people??

We are simply saying there are no good and no bad guns, and that it is an issue with the people and the management of their mental health NOT the guns.

Guns have not made these people deranged, society and other factors have done this. So changing gun laws will do nothing to address the issue at hand that is causing the problem just like putting a band aid on skin cancer will do nothing to cure the cancer.

Not sure why this is so difficult to understand??

Most so called massacres are carried out by people who have either used guns they have illegally obtained or illegally owned, so how will laws change that, as the laws are already there, yet these massacres still happened, so will banning things twice work??

I mean shooting people is already against the law, so now we have an extra law that says well sorry you can't have guns, so now the person that wants to shoot people will say to himself, 'self, well I was going to kill 20 people with my illegal fire arm but since now they have banned guns I won't be doing it, I will head up to the police station and hand my gun in instead' or do you think this person will go on and obtain the guns anyway even though the law says he can not have them??

Changing gun laws will only affect people that follow the law, it's unlikely that drug dealers, robbers, criminals and murderers will now curb their activity hand their guns in at the local police station before heading to Centrelink to look for a job.

We need the REAL ISSUE causing these incidents addressed, not band aid solutions that will do nothing to address the real problem.

Big Mick
19-12-2012, 03:49 PM
I like how more people are in support of guns then they are of refugees.

Who would be in support of refugees:confused::confused:

I support sending them back where ever they came from, as most of them are not real refugees anyway, flying to asia, burning your passport and destroying your identity before paying a people smugglers to ship you to Australia does not make them refugees, it makes them cue jumpers and most likely criminals:cool:

jj80
19-12-2012, 04:17 PM
Hey Mick I actually agree with a lot of what you say... and I think most "anti-gun" people would too... so I thought I'd explain my own stance. WALL OF TEXT WARNING SINCE I ATTEMPTED TO RESPOND TO EVERY POINT.

"Guns have not made these people deranged, society and other factors have done this. So changing gun laws will do nothing to address the issue at hand that is causing the problem just like putting a band aid on skin cancer will do nothing to cure the cancer."

Agree completely, it's a band aid fix.

"Guns have not made these people deranged, society and other factors have done this."

Not society, at least certainly not alone - I don't think the deranged nature of these people is due to society. I would bet a lot of these kids are mentally ill, and some perhaps are psychopathic. They overreact to their circumstances at school or in their family. They stab the dog because it looks at them strangely, etc. I doubt this is a problem we can solve by making schools better places, you will always have nutcases who over-react or who are insane.

The only other factor is inherent mental illness... So the only 'non-bandaid' fix is to identify the mentally ill people and treat them all before they decide to hurt others. I don't think this is possible 100% of the time (here is where we may disagree). It would require a mental health program in schools the likes of which we've never seen, every kid would need screening (and constant screening, since mental illnesses can be latent and only emerge at a certain age). I also think it's very easy to disguise mental illness, particularly of the psychopathic variety (no empathy towards others). Take Ted Bundy as a good example of someone who can act very normally and wouldn't want treatment. I think it's probably an issue that needs looking at, I just don't think it will be 100% effective.

So the 'take away guns' or 'tighten up gun control' approach is certainly not a solution to psychopaths or deranged people wielding guns and hurting others, it's just an attempt to reduce the harm they'd otherwise be able to inflict. The argument against this is that they'd find other ways - bombs, etc. I think this is certainly true in some cases - but I believe the level of intelligence and the amount of planning necessary to construct a weapon that would be as effective as a gun is out of the reach of most mentally ill people. I think this point can be debated (please not with fucking statistics).

Hence, gun control is not a solution, but perhaps the best band aid we have currently. I err on the side of caution somewhat quickly in this case since it doesn't affect me, as I no longer own any guns or do shooting.... but given the horrific nature of the crimes we see continually I think it's the best approach. I also think it will never happen. Reducing the number of firearms, especially in America, is a pipe dream... It's a sensible dream though, I think.

On "Most so called massacres are carried out by people who have either used guns they have illegally obtained or illegally owned, so how will laws change that, as the laws are already there, yet these massacres still happened, so will banning things twice work??" Reducing the firearms in circulation by restricting availability to only those who need them for a reason makes it harder for anyone to misuse them. For example, if I wanted to commit a crime the only person I know on a farm is you.... a bit distant. Will you lend me your gun? Otherwise, right now I can't get one. Again, assume I'm mentally ill, at school, and making a fertilizer bomb and borrowing mum's car to take it to show and tell is a bit out of the question.

"I mean shooting people is already against the law, so now we have an extra law that says well sorry you can't have guns, so now the person that wants to shoot people will say to himself, 'self, well I was going to kill 20 people but since now they have banned guns I won't be doing it' or do you think this person will go on and obtain the guns anyway even though the law says he can not have them??"
No, but they may only stab someone now, or have access to a less effective weapon.

vonfram88
19-12-2012, 04:31 PM
Regulation is never 100% effective. Criminals don't tend to play by the rules. My kids are never allowed unsupervised access to any of our firearms. One of my kids is HFA - the latest group to be demonised by left leaning media. Secure storage requirements in Australia go a long way to preventing unauthorised and unlawful access to firearms. (sadly the regulations did nothing to prevent several hundred illegal handguns from recently being smuggled in through customs by criminals).

I can see the USA placing greater onus on law abiding firearms owners to properly secure their firearms.

That's their problem though and I don't really think they give a damn about the views of Australian activists.

jj80
19-12-2012, 04:59 PM
Regulation is never 100% effective. Criminals don't tend to play by the rules.


Regulation doesn't have to be 100% effective for it to be worth it. Kids aren't criminals, and nutbags are often loners without criminal links through which they could obtain weapons. We're not talking about organised crime here or even small time criminals.

beez
19-12-2012, 05:38 PM
Who would be in support of refugees:confused::confused:

I support sending them back where ever they came from, as most of them are not real refugees anyway, flying to asia, burning your passport and destroying your identity before paying a people smugglers to ship you to Australia does not make them refugees, it makes them cue jumpers and most likely criminals:cool:

So your saying they're all the same? All queue jumpers? Those that do or keep complaining about this country when they get here can get sent back for all I care.

I was just pointing out how much more people are defending their right to have guns then to help out their fellow men. And it's the right I'm talking about they expect in America. I have gun owning friends and I know how difficult it is to legally have one here.

I know it's a mental issue for these killers to just snap but making it a lot harder over there will help in limiting gun crime. Even if it's only a little it's better then nothing.

Darkoz
19-12-2012, 06:23 PM
All refugees should get free guns

harry1970
19-12-2012, 06:46 PM
All refugees should get free guns

they already do mate, it's called the Taliban....

thread going off topic....

Big Mick
19-12-2012, 06:54 PM
For example, if I wanted to commit a crime the only person I know on a farm is you.... a bit distant. Will you lend me your gun?

That's not where the guns come from, and that is my point, no law abiding gun owner will 'lend' you a gun. Guns are securely stored in an expensive gun safe, which is bolted to the floor as well as the structural part of a wall with a minimum of 4 x 12mm anchor bolts, securing it to floor and wall, with all ammunition stored in a separate locked compartment with a separate key.

All firearms are registered and you must on a yearly basis prove to the Government that you still have a genuine need to own the said gun.

This is in Australia (NSW anyway).

The firearms used in MOST (not all) of these incidents are illegally owned and obtained, They are bought down the pub, or in back alleys sold by criminals, and not that hard to obtain in most capital cities around Australia.

I have LEGALLY owned guns since I was 14 years old, which is 30 years now, I have been a recreational hunter most of my life. I used to own several semiautomatic guns that I had to hand in to police when the laws changed, so I did (I bet no criminals did).

I agree with safe storage and strict rules for gun ownership, I believe there should be mandatory reporting for doctors, where if anyone suffers from depression, mental illness of any kind, has committed violent crime at any time or appears unstable in any way, they should not be able to own firearms, no if's no but's and no may be's. (this will not stop them obtaining them illegally, but it will at least some what address the issue gun control nazis harp on about, and stop legally owned guns from being used in these incidents)

Not every person should be able to own firearms, and I am also a firm believer that not every person should be able to hold a drivers license, it should be much harder to get a drivers license.

So I guess in some way I agree with gun control, but normal, stable, level headed individuals who have completed the required training should be able to own what ever gun they require for their chosen sport or work.

stevematic
19-12-2012, 09:30 PM
Gun control debate (http://www.sportingshootermag.com.au/news/disarming-the-good-guys-will-not-prevent-massacres)

jj80
19-12-2012, 09:53 PM
I'm done arguing, I disagree with 99% of the article, or at least the relevance of the statistics it cites to these situations.. and some of its conclusions.... BUT I agree teachers should carry guns now in America lol...

stevematic
19-12-2012, 09:59 PM
I'm done arguing, I disagree with 99% of the article, or at least the relevance of the statistics it cites to these situations.. and some of its conclusions.... BUT I agree teachers should carry guns now in America lol...

LOL, of course you are because they don't align with your view. How can you discount studies performed by universities and institutions using crime statistics from our country and others? Oh, because you're scared of guns.

No one is saying teachers SHOULD carry guns.

NightFallTech
19-12-2012, 10:14 PM
where if anyone suffers from depression, mental illness of any kind

Fantastic way to drop the percentage of rural males seeking treatment for depression even further...

Darkoz
19-12-2012, 10:17 PM
Gun control debate (http://www.sportingshootermag.com.au/news/disarming-the-good-guys-will-not-prevent-massacres)

Interesting, the study claims that the murder rate rises dramatically when strict gun laws are applied, if true, why do you think that is?

The article was published in a hunting and gun magazine, just to point out.

stevematic
19-12-2012, 10:24 PM
Interesting, the study claims that the murder rate rises dramatically when strict gun laws are applied, if true, why do you think that is?

The article was published in a hunting and gun magazine, just to point out.

Because criminals know the law abiding citizens have been disarmed and know they're not a threat.

I know that people will think it's a biased source, which it is however it's still providing legitimate sources and statistics.

jj80
19-12-2012, 10:49 PM
LOL, of course you are because they don't align with your view. How can you discount studies performed by universities and institutions using crime statistics from our country and others? Oh, because you're scared of guns.

No one is saying teachers SHOULD carry guns.

I am saying they should, lol. Did you read what I said?

They pretty much said similarly in that article, if you bothered to read it.

God you're fucking daft. The statistics I'm talking about are about general crime and gun ownership, which the article cites. If you want my opinion on that, which is a separate topic to gun ownership and them getting into the hand of crazy fucks, I believe what the statistics state. But it's not really related to what I was talking about. Take a few fucking minutes to think about it and let the light bulb go off.

stevematic
19-12-2012, 10:58 PM
I am saying they should, lol. Did you read what I said?

They pretty much said similarly in that article, if you bothered to read it.

God you're fucking daft. The statistics I'm talking about are about general crime and gun ownership, which the article cites. If you want my opinion on that, which is a separate topic to gun ownership and them getting into the hand of crazy fucks, I believe what the statistics state. But it's not really related to what I was talking about. Take a few fucking minutes to think about it and let the light bulb go off. Fucking moron.

I did bother to read it, I figured you were being sarcastic. My apologies.

I don't understand what you mean by "the statistics I'm talking about", I wasn't posting the article to argue with anyone I just thought it was an interesting article.

Look, I want to keep the argument civil and I'm sorry if there's a misunderstanding. I haven't read the previous page.

jj80
19-12-2012, 10:59 PM
Allright. my apologies, the internet does this to me.......

What I mean is the studies they cite show that there's no significant correlation between gun laws and the incident of violent crime. This isn't really a surprise, as violent crime occurs primarily as a result of societal conditions (poverty and proximity breed crime, or whatever the saying is) and suddenly introducing gun laws isn't going to change the occurence of murders in places like Columbia etc..

What I'm talking about is atrocities perpetrated by insane people, who are statistical outliers... they do not contribute in any significant way to gun related crimes, especially in a place like America, and the studies were not measuring them separately (how could you)? Thus the statistics in these cases are not relevant, in my opinion. At least not to the argument which I was stating which goes.. 'making guns harder to obtain by insane people will lessen the number of crimes similar to the ones we've seen recently in America'.

Stiffy
20-12-2012, 05:09 AM
Von, whatever your self interest in this matter the fact remains, guns in the hands of the deranged or those who would use them (guns) for purposes we just recently saw and have continually seen in the U.S. has to be stopped. If you don't agree with that or are just trying to circle jerk then you are not worth the effort of even replying too. Merry Xmas to you and yours.


I think you are missing the point people are trying to make, and yet you mention it in your reply.

Who said we should give guns to deranged people??

We are simply saying there are no good and no bad guns, and that it is an issue with the people and the management of their mental health NOT the guns.

Guns have not made these people deranged, society and other factors have done this. So changing gun laws will do nothing to address the issue at hand that is causing the problem just like putting a band aid on skin cancer will do nothing to cure the cancer.

Not sure why this is so difficult to understand??

Most so called massacres are carried out by people who have either used guns they have illegally obtained or illegally owned, so how will laws change that, as the laws are already there, yet these massacres still happened, so will banning things twice work??

I mean shooting people is already against the law, so now we have an extra law that says well sorry you can't have guns, so now the person that wants to shoot people will say to himself, 'self, well I was going to kill 20 people with my illegal fire arm but since now they have banned guns I won't be doing it, I will head up to the police station and hand my gun in instead' or do you think this person will go on and obtain the guns anyway even though the law says he can not have them??

Changing gun laws will only affect people that follow the law, it's unlikely that drug dealers, robbers, criminals and murderers will now curb their activity hand their guns in at the local police station before heading to Centrelink to look for a job.

We need the REAL ISSUE causing these incidents addressed, not band aid solutions that will do nothing to address the real problem.


That's not where the guns come from, and that is my point, no law abiding gun owner will 'lend' you a gun. Guns are securely stored in an expensive gun safe, which is bolted to the floor as well as the structural part of a wall with a minimum of 4 x 12mm anchor bolts, securing it to floor and wall, with all ammunition stored in a separate locked compartment with a separate key.

All firearms are registered and you must on a yearly basis prove to the Government that you still have a genuine need to own the said gun.

This is in Australia (NSW anyway).

The firearms used in MOST (not all) of these incidents are illegally owned and obtained, They are bought down the pub, or in back alleys sold by criminals, and not that hard to obtain in most capital cities around Australia.

I have LEGALLY owned guns since I was 14 years old, which is 30 years now, I have been a recreational hunter most of my life. I used to own several semiautomatic guns that I had to hand in to police when the laws changed, so I did (I bet no criminals did).

I agree with safe storage and strict rules for gun ownership, I believe there should be mandatory reporting for doctors, where if anyone suffers from depression, mental illness of any kind, has committed violent crime at any time or appears unstable in any way, they should not be able to own firearms, no if's no but's and no may be's. (this will not stop them obtaining them illegally, but it will at least some what address the issue gun control nazis harp on about, and stop legally owned guns from being used in these incidents)

Not every person should be able to own firearms, and I am also a firm believer that not every person should be able to hold a drivers license, it should be much harder to get a drivers license.

So I guess in some way I agree with gun control, but normal, stable, level headed individuals who have completed the required training should be able to own what ever gun they require for their chosen sport or work.
Look at the chronology of posts. My original post, then your original opposition reply and then finally your agreeance (on gun control being needed).

Its good you finally agree with the point the majority of the rest of the world has been stating for the past few days, even if it took all day and one big circle jerk to come to it.

This is exactly what has been going on in the U.S. Congress has been circle jerking based on guns owners self interests, meanwhile hundreds of innocent people have died due to the ease of gun availability to people who would harm innocents.

Congratulations to Darkoz and Joe for your persistence in arguing on behalf of the best interests of society and innocents who may be slain in future killings. Did Stevematic really post an article from a gun and hunting magazine, an article obviously based on the self interests of gun owners and gun retailers .......... fuck me ........ meanwhile more innocent people will probably die due to the ease of guns getting into the hands of those who would cause harm.

Brick
20-12-2012, 06:12 AM
All the calls for gun control are moot. The shooter at virgina tech used 9mm pistol this guy used a semi auto but he was shooting school kids, he could have had a .223 bolt and still killed as many pwople. So what does gun control achieve nothing.

It is a social problem they need to adress in america not a gun problem. Do you people reslise how many 223 & 222 long arms lurk in suburban gun safes in this country, yet strangely we don't have school massacres. Why because our society isn't sick.

Taking law abiding shooters guns just drives the balance of power into criminals hands, I'm sure anyone living in western sydney can attest to that. I live on the gold coast and we have shootongs at least once a month which is funny cause pre buy back a shooting was a rare and newsworthy event

Fucking cocksucker nanny state motherfuckers. One of these days I'll move somewhere more liberal.

Bradders
20-12-2012, 06:16 AM
All the calls for gun control are moot. The shooter at virgina tech used 9mm pistol this guy used a semi auto but he was shooting school kids, he could have had a .223 bolt and still killed as many pwople. So what does gun control achieve nothing.

It is a social problem they need to adress in america not a gun problem. Do you people reslise how many 223 & 222 long arms lurk in suburban gun safes in this country, yet strangely we don't have school massacres. Why because our society isn't sick.

Taking law abiding shooters guns just drives the balance of power into criminals hands, I'm sure anyone living in western sydney can attest to that. I live on the gold coast and we have shootongs at least once a month which is funny cause pre buy back a shooting was a rare and newsworthy event

Fucking cocksucker nanny state motherfuckers. One of these days I'll move somewhere more liberal.

Isn't that the difference though here they are in gun safes, in the states shoved in a wardrobe or under the bed there is no regulations about storage... Could be wrong though

Stiffy
20-12-2012, 06:17 AM
All the calls for gun control are moot. The shooter at virgina tech used 9mm pistol this guy used a semi auto but he was shooting school kids, he could have had a .223 bolt and still killed as many pwople. So what does gun control achieve nothing.

It is a social problem they need to adress in america not a gun problem. Do you people reslise how many 223 & 222 long arms lurk in suburban gun safes in this country, yet strangely we don't have school massacres. Why because our society isn't sick.

Taking law abiding shooters guns just drives the balance of power into criminals hands, I'm sure anyone living in western sydney can attest to that. I live on the gold coast and we have shootongs at least once a month which is funny cause pre buy back a shooting was a rare and newsworthy event

Fucking cocksucker nanny state motherfuckers. One of these days I'll move somewhere more liberal.
thats B.S. Fluffy. The ease at which a person in a deranged or highly emotional state can obtain a gun and then go out and slay innocent people is a problem. Yes the U.S. is a fucked up place due to the inequality of its society, but the ease of guns getting into the hands of those who are distraught or deranged is a problem.

Brick
20-12-2012, 07:28 AM
No point arguing about it, people are never going to agree on this issue. It's just a shame the bleeding hearts are so good at manipulating a tragedy like this to sell their nanny state bullshit. The yanks will never give up their guns anyway, it's as much a part of their culture as baseball.

I'm out of this thread.

vonfram88
20-12-2012, 10:55 AM
Isn't that the difference though here they are in gun safes, in the states shoved in a wardrobe or under the bed there is no regulations about storage... Could be wrong though

That's an interesting point. Today we need to secure our firearms, which says something about society.

When I was growing up in the 1970's and 80's almost nobody had their firearms in secure storage, urban or rural. I could walk into my parents bedroom and obtain a semiautomatic rifle and the ammo without any dramas at all. But I didn't. Other houses had similar arrangements. There were shotguns under beds, 303's in sheds and browning self loading rifles in wardrobes. Yet there weren't the depraved shooting sprees.

I spent a bit of my childhood in the bush on the edge of a country town. I rode around on dirt bikes and sometimes I was allowed to sling the trusty ruger 10/22 over my shoulder and go bunny busting. The cops met me on a dirt road one day and stopped me, aged 10. They didn't think what I was doing was a good idea - I might stack the bike and damage the rifle.

What's changed? Firearms are still inanimate objects. There were loads of the so-called "semi automatic terror weapons" as the anti gun lobby call them but no one saw them as menacing, in fact hardly anyone cared at all.

Now I have to store an air rifle as though it were an Exocet missile launcher because no one can be trusted, and rather than being seen as nothing more than an inanimate object with a given function, some people now consider them as weapons.

What compels youth to take up a gun and do unspeakable things? Is the incidence of cognitive disability, mental illness and behavioral disorder that much greater these days? I can't imagine so.

I blame the parents.

Big Mick
20-12-2012, 11:28 AM
That's an interesting point. Today we need to secure our firearms, which says something about society.

When I was growing up in the 1970's and 80's almost nobody had their firearms in secure storage, urban or rural. I could walk into my parents bedroom and obtain a semiautomatic rifle and the ammo without any dramas at all. But I didn't. Other houses had similar arrangements. There were shotguns under beds, 303's in sheds and browning self loading rifles in wardrobes. Yet there weren't the depraved shooting sprees.

I spent a bit of my childhood in the bush on the edge of a country town. I rode around on dirt bikes and sometimes I was allowed to sling the trusty ruger 10/22 over my shoulder and go bunny busting. The cops met me on a dirt road one day and stopped me, aged 10. They didn't think what I was doing was a good idea - I might stack the bike and damage the rifle.

What's changed? Firearms are still inanimate objects. There were loads of the so-called "semi automatic terror weapons" as the anti gun lobby call them but no one saw them as menacing, in fact hardly anyone cared at all.

Now I have to store an air rifle as though it were an Exocet missile launcher because no one can be trusted, and rather than being seen as nothing more than an inanimate object with a given function, some people now consider them as weapons.

What compels youth to take up a gun and do unspeakable things? Is the incidence of cognitive disability, mental illness and behavioral disorder that much greater these days? I can't imagine so.

I blame the parents.

This pretty much sums it up, how many people still remember firearms and ammunition sold in K Mart and Big W along side the fishing rods?? Was not that long ago, how many people remember farmers having guns in the tray of their ute while parked outside the shops or the pub, with the keys still in the ignition of said ute??

I am happy to say where I live at the moment NO ONE locks their house or their car, car keys are 'stored' in the ignition of the car no one worries about their kids playing outside, and almost every person owns at least 1 high powered firearm.

And this comes back to my original argument, it is not the guns that are the problem it is the people and society as a whole in most cities. Where I live at the moment none of this has gotten here yet, my neighbour takes my kids fishing, another neighbour takes my 7 year old son pig hunting. And I have no concern, every neighbour has my number, they all watch the kids and I watch their kids.

Any of them step out of line they are put back into place by who ever is there, and everyone is happy with that deal, just like the old days.

How do the anti gun nazis explain that here, where there are more guns than people, there is virtually no crime, no drugs, no break ins, no robberies, no cars getting stolen, no kids getting molested, no people getting shot?? If guns were the problem these issues should be out of control here with all these guns in peoples hands, yet we have zero crime........anti gun campaigners please explain this.

There is no correlation between tight gun laws firearms related crime, never has been, and probably never will be. For example Japan has the tightest gun laws in the world yet they have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. In Switzerland there is very low gun related crime, yet almost every household has a High Powered Fully Automatic Military Weapon in it. Switzerland thus has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world, yet one of the lowest crime rates in the world......can anyone please explain how this is possible with all these high powered automatic military rifles freely available to almost every citizen????

Before replying please read the last two paragraphs again and understand it.

EDIT:
Not pointing a finger, but it appears that a LOT of these issues have come up since Australia has become a multicultural society, when guns were sold at Big W we were not multicultural, it seems there are no multicultural people living within 100km of where I live and there seems to be none of these problems here, travel 120km up the road to a larger town occupied with politically correct multicultural society people, and all of a sudden we have stealing, break ins, drugs, robberies etc etc Travel back into the bush to my small town of 120 people surrounded by farms, with no multicultural society and all the problems suddenly disappear.......probably just coincidence???? Or am I onto something??

jj80
20-12-2012, 12:49 PM
lol, I agree, multiculturalism is a bad bad idea. I have very little faith in people... unless it comes for their low tolerance for one another, and readiness to judge based on how they look/speak/their culture. Let me admit straight up it takes one to know one ;)

The main difference in people's viewpoint on this issue is just societal issue vs not a societal issue. Fluffy believes it's a 100% sick society creating these people issue, so do others... I'm not so sure... I believe it's a mix of society and born psychopaths emerging in a population of 300 million (and committing copy cat crimes). I do believe their access to effective weapons is too easy. Apparently this is enough to label me a communist/moron/lefty etc.

You asked me to read your post Mick so I did - I agree societal issues are the chief cause of general violent crime, etc. but just go back to my last post stating why I believe such statistics are not relevant in these cases. Imagine if we took away centrelink in this country but tightened up gun laws to a ridiculous extent. Crime rates would go crazy pretty quickly, I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Crimes of the school shooter kind are statistical outliers - stopping one or two port arthurs isn't going to ever go noticed or be statistically measurable.

As for countries where there are loads of rifles but no similar mass shootings, I would just give it time..... At the moment in Japan fuck ups lock themselves in their rooms for years, it's pretty funny Hikikomori - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori)

stevematic
20-12-2012, 01:05 PM
I don't think you're a moron for your belief that the access to effective weapon is too easy, I actually don't understand how the gun show loophole is in place. I believe that needs to be fixed as soon as possible.

There was the Cumbria massacre in the UK a couple of years back where a guy who had been a registered gun owner for 35+ years just went nuts. I haven't read up on that though so I don't know what the findings were.

vonfram88
20-12-2012, 01:29 PM
EDIT:
Not pointing a finger, but it appears that a LOT of these issues have come up since Australia has become a multicultural society, when guns were sold at Big W we were not multicultural, it seems there are no multicultural people living within 100km of where I live and there seems to be none of these problems here, travel 120km up the road to a larger town occupied with politically correct multicultural society people, and all of a sudden we have stealing, break ins, drugs, robberies etc etc Travel back into the bush to my small town of 120 people surrounded by farms, with no multicultural society and all the problems suddenly disappear.......probably just coincidence???? Or am I onto something??

We have been a multicultural society for longer than most people realise. In a way we were once a more egalitarian and integrated society before the advent of nit picking, introverted societal analysis. (with the noteable exception of the indigenous population issues that are typical of a newly-colonised/invaded land)

It seems we need to analyze everything to death these days and I feel there has been too much emphasis on highlighting the differences between people of various cultural backgrounds rather than the shared values. The core principles of the three main Abrahamic faiths are something that if followed, would allow us to leave our doors unlocked at night, and our children to walk unaccompanied through parks.

Instead we preoccupy ourselves with the headgear worn by some women, the unfortunate utterances of a minority group of hard liners and the abhorrent sexual misconduct of a small number of clerics.

The machine seems to broken, and, unfortunately, no one seems to be able to find the right set of spanners.

Brick
20-12-2012, 01:31 PM
We have been a multicultural society for longer than most people realise. In a way we were once a more egalitarian and integrated society before the advent of nit picking, introverted societal analysis. (with the noteable exception of the indigenous population issues that are typical of a newly-colonised/invaded land)

It seems we need to analyze everything to death these days and I feel there has been too much emphasis on highlighting the differences between people of various cultural backgrounds rather than the shared values. The core principles of the three main Abrahamic faiths are something that if followed, would allow us to leave our doors unlocked at night, and our children to walk unaccompanied through parks.

Instead we preoccupy ourselves with the headgear worn by some women, the unfortunate utterances of a minority group of hard liners and the abhorrent sexual misconduct of a small number of clerics.

The machine seems to broken, and, unfortunately, no one seems to be able to find the right set of spanners.

I like the cut of your jib.

Von for PM

vonfram88
20-12-2012, 02:28 PM
I suppose my views are tempered by what I do. I have had the privilege of leading different cultural groups to interact for a common purpose. Sometimes it gets really interesting. I haven't been stabbed or shot at for a long time.

beez
20-12-2012, 04:36 PM
out of it.

Stiffy
20-12-2012, 05:37 PM
There is no correlation between tight gun laws firearms related crime, never has been, and probably never will be.


^^^^Fucking Bullshit N.R.A. Propoganda^^^^

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/1002/welcome-to-the-nra-nra-demotivational-poster-1265923745.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CctG8IcMP98/T3nTUPM3aMI/AAAAAAAACoc/LmN8sEIrtYQ/s1600/NRA_Member+of+Month.jpg

stevematic
20-12-2012, 05:58 PM
Cho was not allowed to purchase guns under federal law.

Columbine kids used a firearm that was on the AWB, please tell me how that happened since they were illegal? They also used homemade explosives which doesn't make sense because that's also illegal.

What you're dribbling is left wing greenie propaganda. Please post actual statistics and studies rather than resorting to pictures which only ruin whatever shred of credibility you actually had.

kaz
20-12-2012, 06:03 PM
Ivan Milat and the Strathfield Massacre Gun man were both licensed Gun Holders.

Stiffy
20-12-2012, 06:12 PM
I am not going to waste my time and energy arguing with people whose self interests they are putting before the interests of those who have been harmed and will continue to be harmed.

Anyone can win an argument, even when gravely wrong. Statistics and studies are handpicked and distorted to suit individual party self interest. Saw a study Coca Cola put out recently, Coke is good for children. Not going to waste my time and energy!

stevematic
20-12-2012, 06:19 PM
I am not going to waste my time and energy arguing with people whose self interests they are putting before the interests of those who have been harmed and will continue to be harmed.

Anyone can win an argument, even when gravely wrong. Statistics and studies are handpicked and distorted to suit individual party self interest. Saw a study Coca Cola put out recently, Coke is good for children. Not going to waste my time and energy!

Of course you're not going to waste your time because you haven't presented one reasonable argument yet, you're basing it off emotion and lack of education.

Brick
20-12-2012, 06:26 PM
Of course you're not going to waste your time because you haven't presented one reasonable argument yet, you're basing it off emotion and lack of education.

Yep pretty much sums up the mantra of anyone anti shooter.

Guns are bad lets ban them without looking at the bigger picture.

Its idiocy, if you try and talk facts you get accused of been a gun nut and made out as if your helping these guys load mags so they can shoot up another kindergarten

Never again in my life will I vote liberal, solely based on what John Howard did when he took our semi auto rifles. Fucking only one step away from becoming a totalitarian state, didn't even give us the courtesy of a refferendum.

stevematic
20-12-2012, 06:39 PM
Ivan Milat and the Strathfield Massacre Gun man were both licensed Gun Holders.

Can't speak about the Strathfield Massacre but are you aware of how Milat killed his victims? Most of them weren't even killed with a gun. I doubt an outright ban of every firearm would have stopped what he did, the man was a monster.

kaz
20-12-2012, 06:53 PM
He used his victims as target practice. He pulled a gun on the only survivor and there were inconclusive results on a couple of the victims.
My property neighbors his family property in Wombeyan caves. I work with his nephew.

Gun bans will just force people to hide their guns better.

stevematic
20-12-2012, 07:02 PM
I agree with your last statement, there's still plenty of people out there with their semi auto rifles.

jj80
20-12-2012, 07:08 PM
I've often thought about killing people and how much I'd enjoy it, anyone else?

Can we move on and discuss drug use and the legalisation of recreational substances, which I'm all for. I'm not really pro drug use personally, but I do think if people are properly educated they should have the right to make these decisions themselves. Or some other topic where people hold rigidly to their views (without admitting their assumptions) and which will degrade from a debate into a 'you're a fucking moron' fest.

kaz
20-12-2012, 07:09 PM
I agree with your last statement, there's still plenty of people out there with their semi auto rifles.

I reckon there are people out there, who have elaborate weapons for no other reason than firing them at little bunnies.

stevematic
20-12-2012, 07:10 PM
I do agree that there needs to be a drug reform and for it to be treated as a health matter rather than criminal. 1 in 6 people in the U.S. are in gaol for marijuana offences, that is unbelievable.

stevematic
20-12-2012, 07:16 PM
I reckon there are people out there, who have elaborate weapons for no other reason than firing them at little bunnies.

Absolutely.

vonfram88
20-12-2012, 07:16 PM
I've often thought about killing people and how much I'd enjoy it, anyone else?

Can we move on and discuss drug use and the legalisation of recreational substances, which I'm all for. I'm not really pro drug use personally, but I do think if people are properly educated they should have the right to make these decisions themselves. Or some other topic where people hold rigidly to their views (without admitting their assumptions) and which will degrade from a debate into a 'you're a fucking moron' fest.

You'll succeed in killing people and destroying lives with your stance on drugs.

You are a fine ambassador for the anti-gun movement.

Keep up the good work.

jj80
20-12-2012, 07:21 PM
nvm

jj80
20-12-2012, 07:23 PM
nvm

Stiffy
20-12-2012, 07:24 PM
I've often thought about killing people and how much I'd enjoy it, anyone else?


^srs???^
I had left this thread but I do like to go where the lols are. Gotta admit your statement brought the lols if that was your intention :D

stevematic
20-12-2012, 07:27 PM
You'll succeed in killing people and destroying lives with your stance on drugs.

You are a fine ambassador for the anti-gun movement.

Keep up the good work.

von, I personally think the war on drugs is about as effective as gun control. Drug reform isn't just about legalisation, it's about looking to help people who have serious problems rather than penalising them. Although, this discussion is probably for another thread, this one should be used to pay our respects to the people we lost in this horrific tragedy.

jj80
20-12-2012, 07:46 PM
I got trolled, and responded in turn, I have no interest in discussing pro/anti drugs, or at least no disillusions anything thoughtful or original could be presented here.

I hope you guys are right, I hope it is purely a societal issue that keeps pushing these school kids and loners over the edge, and one we can correct with mental health care programs (and the like).

I'm out, peace.

Stiffy
20-12-2012, 07:53 PM
I got trolled, and responded in turn, I have no interest in discussing pro/anti drugs, or at least no disillusions anything thoughtful or original could be presented here.

I hope you guys are right, I hope it is purely a societal issue that keeps pushing these school kids and loners over the edge, and one we can correct with mental health care programs (and the like).

I'm out, peace.
Thats one of the best posts in this thread Joe.

The N.R.A. is so powerful in the U.S. including their well rehearsed and practiced propoganda and lobbying of Politicians its a hard battle for the average Joe to win ......... (as someone once said "God bless America and pass the amunition")

+1 to the mental health care reforms and everything else in the good old U.S. of A.

harry1970
22-12-2012, 08:03 AM
Watched the news this morning and the American National Rifle Associations answer to this problem is to have armed guards mandatory at every school. Wow, only in America. Imagine if any association in Australia said that, they would be ridiculed...

Not sure if even this will do any good as gunmen will target shopping centres, movies etc instead.

There is no solution to this problem.

Big Mick
22-12-2012, 11:21 AM
Watched the news this morning and the American National Rifle Associations answer to this problem is to have armed guards mandatory at every school. Wow, only in America. Imagine if any association in Australia said that, they would be ridiculed...

Not sure if even this will do any good as gunmen will target shopping centres, movies etc instead.

There is no solution to this problem.

Thats just a stupid idea:confused::cool:

I recon teachers should be issues with hand guns and tasers and trained in their use just like police, this should also help disciplining kids:p

Shopping centres and movie theatres already have armed guards thats why they are targeting schools:eek:

Bella
22-12-2012, 01:04 PM
There was another shooting this morning in Pennsylvania, 4 people dead. It didn't get as much press :cool:

Mass shooting in Pennsylvania: At least four reported dead &mdash; RT (http://rt.com/usa/news/four-dead-pennsylvania-injured-598/)

NRA's answer to random massacres is to have 'good guys' with guns (i.e. armed security or police officers at all schools across America)

The NRA have too much political power. Shits gotta get real. IMO, its a macro problem, which will start with micro solutions. i.e. communities like the one in Connecticut starting a gun amnesty program, which those in the community (including gun owners) are calling for after the school massacre, as well as a community focus on social & mental health issues which the Connecticut mayor is already acting on.

Which I find to be a huge step in a very positive direction. The hope is a domino effect will take place across the US?

It requires a multi-faceted approach to fix the unfixable, but at least at a local level, Connecticut are taking the first step.

Martin Bryants massacre was the catalyst for gun reform & greater awareness & funding for mental health in Australia. Sometimes, it seems, it takes great tragedy to force action.

Brick
22-12-2012, 02:07 PM
Martin Bryants massacre was the catalyst for gun reform & greater awareness & funding for mental health in Australia. Sometimes, it seems, it takes great tragedy to force action.

We must live in different countries, mental health awareness and treatment have never been worse in Australia, or so the not for profits who champion that cause keep saying in the media. All we had was a knee jerk buyback that took legal long arms out of the hands of law abiding shooters.

Bella
22-12-2012, 02:28 PM
We must live in different countries, mental health awareness and treatment have never been worse in Australia, or so the not for profits who champion that cause keep saying in the media. All we had was a knee jerk buyback that took legal long arms out of the hands of law abiding shooters.

Aww I don't think thats true Fluff. Mental Health Programs & awareness were non-existent before 1996 (Port Arthur Massacre)

John Howard put more money towards the development of greater programs, research & awareness, but nothing was 'immediate' - its taken over a decade to come to a place where mental illness is recognised as a debilitating illness by insurers, workcover & mainstream society. And its spoken about freely, community programs are rife & each year more money is asked for & given, to facilitate greater awareness, initiatives & treatments.

Sure we still have a long way to go, but the Port Arthur Massacre was the event that got the ball rolling....small steps have been taken ever since.

Beyond Blue was established in the year 2000 as a 5 year national program, that has had such significant impact nationally in raising awareness of mental health conditions & has played a significant & direct role in health policy reform.

Sometimes tragedy, becomes the catalyst for planting seedlings of change, thats all I was saying.

We have a long way to go, yes, absolutely. But we've come so far already too. No other country in the world has a national mental health program that has been so successful.

That's good news, as they're influence will continue on for many years to come & continue to change the landscape of awareness, treatment & government policy for mental health in Australia.

vonfram88
22-12-2012, 06:31 PM
The Howard gun buy back and the subsequent amendments after the Monash university episode have been an abject failure if they were supposed to make a difference to rates of violent crime, homicide or mental health care.

In less than two weeks, W.A. Has experienced six homicides, none committed with firearms. in the past 24 hours there have been two deaths in Australia by stabbing. A couple were also blugeoned to death by their schizoprenic son in Tasmania, which is particularly tragic, considering the parents' contributions to mental health care.

Something is broken in society. Minority political parties and headline seeking, ignorant journalists love to target firearms and law abiding firearms owners as the cause. It's a waste of resources even debating such a preposterous notion.

I shoot, I vote, contribute to society the best I can and I also have a HFA child. I find the misguided discussions on certain proposed solutions to the problem of social ills rather tiresome.

Mental illness aside, for which people on the spectrum are often mis-labeled, a large part of the problem starts in the home and can be fixed in the first instance with better parenting and more focus on family.

This afternoon my kids and their friends enjoyed some time shooting at cans and unwanted toys under my supervision. None of these kids are remotely interested in violent video games or antisocial activity.

When we finished, I secured the guns and ammunition and they all proceeded to misuse my gym equipment.

skywalker21
24-12-2012, 03:58 PM
...............................................

Legion
29-12-2012, 12:34 PM
Ivan Milat and the Strathfield Massacre Gun man were both licensed Gun Holders.

Do you have a reference for Ivan being a registered gun owner? (Not a anti gun lobby reference from the internet - they aren't reliable)

At least two of his guns were illegal under the existing legislation. One was a fully automatic weapon. The home made silencer was also illegal.

Ivan was well known to police and had spent time in jail. Under current legislation he wouldn't be a fit and proper person to hold a license.

You are implying that banning guns will stop bad things from happening which is simply not true.

The vast majority of serial killers exhibit strong predatory behavior AND don't use guns. They prefer something quiet which reduces the risk of being detected.

Ivan had a long history of violence and rape. Banning guns isn't going to stop someone like Ivan. He's not a normal person.

kaz
29-12-2012, 01:49 PM
Ivan had a license for competitive gun shooting. Google it.


Which post did I state guns should be banned?
I have a license.
I have guns.
I shoot stuff...
Why would I want my own fun taken away?

Brick
29-12-2012, 01:51 PM
Ivan had a license for competitive gun shooting. Google it.


Which post did I state guns should be banned?
I have a license.
I have guns.
I shoot stuff...
Why would I want my own fun taken away?

Lol its pretty funny he obviously didn't read your posts cause his argument is identical to yours LOL

kaz
29-12-2012, 01:57 PM
A gun will fall into any set of hands that wants one bad enough.
Banned or not banned.
Licensed or unlicensed, Ivan Milat vs Port Arthur Massacre.

The gun Martin bryant used was one that was given into John Howard's Gun amnesty. How's that for gun bans!?

Bazza20
29-12-2012, 01:59 PM
Since Aus introduced stricter gun laws shootings have dropped at an increasing rate.

Less guns make it harder for nut jobs to get one.

kaz
29-12-2012, 01:59 PM
Lol its pretty funny he obviously didn't read your posts cause his argument is identical to yours LOL

Let's go shoot coke cans.

kaz
29-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Since Aus introduced stricter gun laws shootings have dropped at an increasing rate.

Less guns make it harder for nut jobs to get one.

True.
And it was these instances of mass killings that had to prompt for tighter laws.

Rugby88
29-12-2012, 02:24 PM
Have only really glanced over this thread...I just have to say guns are not the problem in America its the people....its so deep within their culture that no amount of gun laws will make a difference...honestly if you want a gun you'll get one...whatever country your in and whatever the laws...

Its a sad fact but it is true.

Also the media really dont make things any better - I do agree it needs coverage etc to pay respect but when its all you see for a week on the news and the killers face is plastered all over the news it really does make them abit of a figure/a known name...and for some weirdos out there that are on the verge of killing themseleves they may like to go out with a bang to be remembered...they know they will be plastered all over the news....

Sad sad time...but I think America is in to deep and to stupid for this shit to ever stop..

Legion
29-12-2012, 11:30 PM
Ivan had a license for competitive gun shooting. Google it.

i can't see a reference to it.

do you mean this one The Habitat Advocate Ivan Milat (http://www.habitatadvocate.com.au/?tag=ivan-milat&paged=2)



Which post did I state guns should be banned?


You didn't, I took it as implied when you wrote "Ivan Milat and the Strathfield Massacre Gun man were both licensed Gun Holders."

I don't understand why you made that particular point. You've chosen to link 2 negative events to licensed gun ownership for some reason.

Legion
29-12-2012, 11:40 PM
Anyway,

Guns don't kill people. Monkeys with guns kill people.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhxqIITtTtU

vonfram88
30-12-2012, 09:59 AM
Now the anti gun movement will use its own stats and be rather selective, however the real numbers don't lie.

Firearm homicides were on the decline prior to port Arthur. The decline did not accelerate after the gun buy-back.

In the years after port Arthur, armed robberies increased.

Gun suicides decreased after port Arthur, but total suicide rates showed the same overall trend. People simply found other ways to kill themselves.

Violence increased after the buy-back. Assualt rates went up.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

Shrek
11-02-2013, 06:25 PM
hislmEs9HUE&bpctr=1360572776

JkZ9HnMLKXg

Stiffy
11-02-2013, 07:03 PM
hislmEs9HUE&bpctr=1360572776





JkZ9HnMLKXg



Martyn Bryant was set up to get every one to hand in there guns and so they could supply the special forces and army with the weapons. Do f belive the media image of him with those scary eyes they were photo shopped. People might think I'm crazy reading this but look at the facts. He was also denied a trial which is illegal in this country. Just saying dont belive anything till u fully read the facts. Not defending him but there is a good chance he is innocent.

GROAR meet McFly (Louie). McFly (Louie) meet GROAR. :D

kaz
11-02-2013, 07:13 PM
Anyone watch Happy Gimore last night?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/11/u9uzy5aj.jpg

jj80
17-09-2013, 08:54 PM
Every 6 months.

With regularity.

Fucking lmao

Just a joke now