• Keep up to date with Ausbb via Twitter and Facebook. Please add us!
  • Join the Ausbb - Australian BodyBuilding forum

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

    The Ausbb - Australian BodyBuilding forum is dedicated to no nonsense muscle and strength building. If you need advice that works, you have come to the right place. This forum focuses on building strength and muscle using the basics. You will also find that the Ausbb- Australian Bodybuilding Forum stresses encouragement and respect. Trolls and name calling are not allowed here. No matter what your personal goals are, you will be given effective advice that produces results.

    Please consider registering. It takes 30 seconds, and will allow you to get the most out of the forum.

possible steroid stack enquiry

jaybee

New member
Hey guys was wondering if anyone could give us some advice on the cycle my mate had recommended for me. He has done a few cycles himself, but after reading around I'm not sure if this is truly the best one.

It is a 12 week cycle consisting of:

250mg Testosterone Enanthate
250mg Sustanon 250
250mg Nandrolene Decanoate

1ml of each (3ml total) in the one jab, weekly.
Of course with a PCT of Novla.

Does this sound productive? for a first cycle? or for any cycle?
 
what can i say I'm keen to learn. Hadn't edited profile yet - I've been training for just about 3 years.
Got any advice to offer? thanks
 
pin hcg the entire time you're on and for 2ish weeks after (depending on esters etc), THEN run your pct once your test/deca have dropped off enough. 250iu 2-3times per week will do it. nolva on it's own wont be enough to get your leydig cells functioning back to normal capacity as injecting with test (and other steroids) actually causes leydig cell death. the hcg forces them to keep functioning, despite the external test in your system, thus making it much quicker and easier to return to normal.


Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG ‘kick starting’ dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT
also try using Roid Calculator - half lifes steroids ester half-life to figure out when the levels of test etc are low enough (<4) to stop hcg and start pct
 
pin hcg the entire time you're on and for 2ish weeks after (depending on esters etc), THEN run your pct once your test/deca have dropped off enough. 250iu 2-3times per week will do it. nolva on it's own wont be enough to get your leydig cells functioning back to normal capacity as injecting with test (and other steroids) actually causes leydig cell death. the hcg forces them to keep functioning, despite the external test in your system, thus making it much quicker and easier to return to normal.



also try using Roid Calculator - half lifes steroids ester half-life to figure out when the levels of test etc are low enough (<4) to stop hcg and start pct

Weren't you the poster in another thread saying you didn't want to squat, had a sub 100kg bench??!

I'm working from memory here and correct me if I'm wrong.

Just thought the op might want to know some background on who is giving him his advice.
 
Thanks for that Matt, will take into consideration.

How does one get hold of HCG? Also wanted to know if Arimidex can be obtained over the counter or if prescription is needed.
 
Alright. hey whats BW?
Anyway if I did decide to do this cycle, does anyone know the maximum time it would take to notice effects? considering it is 750mg all up weekly.
 
12 weeks is bordering on too short imo
It takes about 12 weeks to be able to build and realise "real" strength. You can't buy strength in a bottle so any gains you get primarily from the hormones will disappear just as fast when you come off. Especially at your training level the lifts will increase very fast on that stack, especially the deadlift, and I don't think 12 weeks is long enough to realise the strength gains that you'd get at your training level with that stack especially as the first 4 weeks will just be your hormone levels building up.

I personally in your position would keep the total amounts of hormones the same and spread it all out over 20 weeks. You'd get much more "keepable" gains doing this. You have 3g of each hormone so spread out over 20 weeks this is about 150mg/week of each hormone (450mg total). If you can feasibly measure out 150mg of hormone then that would work well in my books. Or you can run do 500mg of test a week for 8 weeks then drop down the test to 250mg and introduce the deca for 12 weeks or something similar
 
Hey guys was wondering if anyone could give us some advice on the cycle my mate had recommended for me. He has done a few cycles himself, but after reading around I'm not sure if this is truly the best one.

It is a 12 week cycle consisting of:

250mg Testosterone Enanthate
250mg Sustanon 250
250mg Nandrolene Decanoate

1ml of each (3ml total) in the one jab, weekly.
Of course with a PCT of Novla.

Does this sound productive? for a first cycle? or for any cycle?
bre why would your m8 tell you 2 take 2 kinds of test E? Ethernat. An sust is test e. So you are stakeing the same.!. Stick with d. Once a week mid week. An test e twice. Does your m8 look like a cage fighter
 
break shots down

bre why would your m8 tell you 2 take 2 kinds of test E? Ethernat. An sust is test e. So you are stakeing the same.!. Stick with d. Once a week mid week. An test e twice. Does your m8 look like a cage fighter
An 3ml. In the 1 jab! Less is more. . .a few shots. . .test d.
 
Top