The Surgeon

Hi guys,

This is my first post on this site.. I joined to get some advice on my situation in regards to testosterone levels.

Im a 22 y/o male. I had always suspected I might have low natural test during my late teens as I struggled to gain muscle (despite a huge calorie diet and solid training) and have always had abdominal fat and love handles even at a low bf. I have also seen my libido slowly drop since my teens, I have poor memory and have noticed that I lack drive and motivation (not good while studying at uni). I also wake up 3 to 4 times a night without fail and get quite moody easily.

So I decided to get test levels checked by my GP and they came back as follows.
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TEST 1
13/9/11

Clinical Notes: Cryptotorchidism

Testosterone: 11 nmol/L (8.3-29)
Free Testosterone: 51.7 pmol/L (25 - 120)
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So after that test (which was a couple of months ago) I noticed that 11 seemed a bit low. After further research I realised that it is very low for a young guy and I kind of got that 'well that explains a bit' realisation. I considered this to be well below optimum levels.

So I went back to my GP to discuss the results and she said they are within normal range so your fine. I told her about my symptoms and she said that if I'm concerned I should see a specialist, which suited me.

Made appointment with Endo and Urologist. The endo called and asked for another test to be done with SHBG, LH and FSH included too. The results came back as follows:

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TEST 2
23/9/11

Testosterone 11nmol/L (8.3-29)
SHBG 20nmol/L (11-71)
FSH 6 (<7)
LH 6.5 (<7)
--------------------------------------

So the level didn't change. FSH and LH were high normal.

A week later during another appointment with my GP she told me that the Endo had talked to her and he didn't think it was worth seeing me as my levels were within range. I was quite disappointed as I really wanted to discuss what might be causing the levels to be lower than normal and get a better understanding of the situation.

I did see the Urologist last week and he was way out of his depth. I could tell he doesn't have a background in the area and went on to suggest that maybe I was suffering from mild depression, I told him I'm not depressed (nearly walked out of his offive when he said it to me actually).

Doctors have been less than helpful so far and I don't know if its worth pursuing this any further. As a keen bodybuilding enthusiast its a huge kick in the guts to be training at such low levels with little to no results, and the sexual, mental and sleep symptoms are a big pain too. I really just want to talk to an open minded and informed doctor.

If anyone could share their thoughts and experiences it would be great. Do you guys think I will get anywhere if I continue my search for a helpful doctor, considering my age and levels?

The Surgeon

Change your diet macro split to:
50% EFA
35% Protein
15% Carbs

What's your training like?
How much do you lift for;
- squat
- bench
- deadlift
- military press
- powerclean
- barbell curl
- dips
- pullups

Are you trying to get on HRT to boost your BB gains?

If so, I suggest you re-think the option. HRT isnt fun, and can have very serious long term sides.

I had similar levels to yourself (though some of mine dropped below range) and I had a few other issues as well.

Im now on HRT.

Mate docs are just people, some are bloody hopeless and some are exceptionally good. I never take the advice of a doc that makes me feel like they are out of their depth, so keep at it and see one that will help you through it.
Don't rest on your laurels mate, find a doc that will help you, search the net for docs that specialize in this area and work on seeing one of them. I feel for ya mate, thought you would get answers and instead got shunned, that sux but i say keep chugging on and see a doc that has some background in this area. Join some forums about medical advice and such to find the right docs mate.

Your results are in the normal range. What do you want them to do??

LH being so high, with test so low can be a sign that things arent running as well as they should be Bazza.

Thats how I found out my testes dont work properly, my sperm count was 1/20th of what "normal" is.

Wow didn't expect replys so fast. Thanks guys.

I only eat carbs during first 2-3 meals and taper them off from there. Meals are essentially protein and fat mostly from meat, tuna, chicken, turkey, beef, etc. I don't really count calories anymore and just eat more or less depending on how much i gain/ or lose each week. But my macros would be pretty much close to that. Way more fat than carbs for sure and plenty of protein.

I do a similar workout to Madcows 5x5 program.. So all compounds. But lifts are poor for all. Strength and size has been hard to come by for years and I lose muscle pretty quickly when I try to cut.

I actually want to avoid getting on TRT if it is avoidable. While the libido, concentration, mood and sleep frustrate me (and my gf), I guess they are still manageable. And while it is annoying struggling to make any gains I still don't think its worth suppressing my natural production unless its absolutely necessary... My main goal is to actually discuss whats going on with a doctor. Whether there is an underlying problem, or it is genetic or whatever else, I want to try and get to the bottom of it.

Considering my levels are quite low to start with, I at least want to get a better understanding of my body with the hope of being prepared for further down the track when levels are naturally supposed to drop even further.

Thanks Rambodian, I have had more of the hopeless types of doctors so far. But I'm still hopeful of finding a decent one. I was actually quite disappointed when the endocrinologist canceled my appointment without even bothering to talk to me though. I guess it just tells me that he wouldn't have been worth the cost anyways.

I don't know if its worth seeing an anti ageing doctor as a next step? or at least someone else who looks more at the symptoms rather than the numbers?

Sticky, do you mind sharing your levels before starting TRT? I wasn't sure whether my LH should be lower but did think it was a bit high? do you think its worth getting a semen analysis as well?

thanks again for the replys everyone. much appreciated

What's your daily Celltech intake like?

Have you ever done a cycle of steroids/pro hormones?

Have you ever had (big) truma to your testes?

Prison mike sorry if It seems like a dumb question but not sure what you mean by celltech intake?i don't take any supps except for a whey protein concentrate and your standard multi v's and fish oil if that's what you meant.

Sticky I haven't done any cycles before and from what I can remember I don't think I've had any significant trauma to my testes. But I did have an undescended testicle at birth which was corrected with surgery a year later. That same testicle is now half the size of the normal one which the urologist told me was a normal occurrence. He said it shouldn't effect testosterone production though as it should still be producing. And the other would compensate for any under production. Again, that's what he said and I don't know enough about it to be able to agree or disagree with it.

Does your doctor know about the undecended teste?

The reason I asked about trauma is that was my cause.
Long story short you have a chemostat in your body that works like a car radiator.
It measures the amount of test in your body, and sends out signals to adjust your levels higher or lower.
The 2 hormones the chemostat releases are LH and FSH. These hormones tell your testes that they need to produce more or less testosterone.

From your bloods, your testes are reciving the signal, but not producing the testosterone accordingly.

I would look further into your shrunken teste to find out more.

If your symtoms are NOT manageable, as mine weren't (which are now returning) I would recommend you speak to as many doctors as it takes to figure out a solution.

Forget about BBing, focus on your health and well being. It's much more important.

Where do you live?

Christian will correct any info I've written wrong, and maybe add his own.
He is more knowledgable on this subject than I.
I can only give you my circumstances, what's worked, what hasnt, and what I wish I would have done.


Sorry if none of this makes sense, I'm on my phone.

How many eggs do you eat on a daily basis? When I was your age I cut down my consumption from an average of about 30 to an average of about 10. Cholesterol, yes that mean and "death" causing substance may just be your saviour. Without cholesterol you won't have a hope in the world in producing testosterone as well as other essential hormones. Also, saturated fat, another "killer", may be lacking in your diet in favour of polyunsaturated oils. Do your research on saturated fats, cholesterol, and their effects on testosterone levels. No, I’m not recommending you become an egg lover; just making a point for you to look outside the square and pay some attention to what we have been told is bad and will kill us. Do you drink cow’s milk and eat its by-products (cheese etc.)? If so, I would ask you to do your research on cow’s milk and estrogen. We already have a life, an environment that is estrogen dominant; we don’t need to add the king of estrogen to it (milk). An alternative to cow’s milk would be goat milk, goat yogurt, goat cheese. Again, I’m not suggesting people start abandoning cow’s milk before doing their research. I’m only throwing few ideas out there, there are many more ideas I could share with you but it’s a start for now.

As far as following the typical high protein bodybuilding diet, well I've never been a proponent of it. I’m more of a high carbohydrate type of a person, with enough protein to build muscles, that’s all. Again here's something for you to read on the subject: http://www.livestrong.com/article/529857-does-a-high-protein-diet-increase-testosterone/.

Now re your hormone levels (which as one member has already pointed out) are within the normal range. Now listen to this: mine were 9, yours are 11! 9 at the time (back in 2007 I think) were below the normal range (as “normal” is always getting updated) and not just with testosterone, but also with cholesterol, triglycerides, and other factors affecting our health. Back to my below normal levels. I asked my doctor to prescribe some testosterone for me which he did. I must say, I gave some away and threw the rest in the bin! I’d much prefer natural supplements over the “hard” stuff. Felt terrible whilst on it, yet others would say they have gotten their lives back.

Another thing for you to look at (and something which I do take) is iodine/iodide in the form of a tablet called Iodoral. Your thyroid gland is another place for you to look at when feeling less than energetic. Check this book out called: Iodine — Why You Need It; Why You Can’t Live Without It,by Dr David Brownstein, MD.

Okay, I’ll stop here. I do realise that I’ve put many new ideas out there, but I’m not recommending anything however, except that you do your own research and talk with an open minded doctor, hopefully one that does have respect for alternative treatments instead of solely relying on drugs.

All the best to you, and I'll end by quoting Sticky:

Forget about BBing, focus on your health and well being. It's much more important

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Fadi.

I have mentioned my testicle being smaller to each doctor I have spoken too. Their responses have each been the same. Basically saying that yes, it is smaller, but it still looks to be functioning somewhat. The Urologist stated that even if I had only 1 testicle he was certain that it would compensate for the other. But I am still uncertain about this, as I have come across instances where this wasn't the case for others. I will have to look into the functional side of things a little more I think.

My symptoms, I guess, are manageable. But at this age, I wouldn't say its ideal to be having a reduced libido, sleep and various mental problems. But I am still getting enough sleep each night and I can still have sex when I need to. Im just a little worried about it getting any worse I guess.

I live in Newcastle Sticky, but often stay in north Sydney with my bro too, so I have seen doctors from both regions.

Some great information there Faddy, thank you. I eat half a dozen eggs a day. I have heard of the correlation between various fats and test. I get a huge amount of fat in my diet though as I make sure to eat some of the fat off steaks, lamb, etc. I also eat plenty of seafood, salmon, nuts, use ex. virgin oil in salads and veggies and have avocados, fish oil, and the works.

The article you posted was interesting. I used to follow a higher carb diet, but I could tell my body didn't like/ appreciate it very much, hence the reason I have switched to moderate carbs and high protein and fat. I like to test things out with my body and will often change it up if i sense it doesn't feel right.

I will be sure to look into Iodine too. I should note that I have had my thyroids checked earlier this year and my GP said they were normal, but I never thought of getting the actual results (another thing to do).

I agree with both of you, I do value my health more than anything else, my goal is to work through my symptoms with a doctor and discuss its implications (particularly for the future), and potential causes.

Another thought. I have noticed that my dad is showing signs of low testosterone oddly enough. He looks a lot thinner than he used to be, has a lot of abdominal fat despite a skinny upper body and legs and my family and I have been joking with him about the fact that he has gotten shorter in the past 5 years or so too.

Im not sure how he is psychologically but he doesn't seem too bad although he can get a mighty temper too.

This is just my personal opinion and I could be wrong. But I have actually brought it up with my mum but I don't think she sees the link and just thought I was clutching at straws. I'm actually concerned about it for his sake as it is said to be one of those things that creeps up on you. But he's one of those guys that wouldn't really care to do any tests to find out.

Do you guys think it could be a genetic link? Maybe I have been blessed with low test genes and a faulty nut that doesn't really help the matter.

What you are describing is more of a lifestyle choices thing than genetically low T. If he trained hard, smart and consistently he would not be like that and his T levels would remain elevated longer into as he gets older.

The Surgeon said:

Another thought. I have noticed that my dad is showing signs of low testosterone oddly enough. He looks a lot thinner than he used to be, has a lot of abdominal fat despite a skinny upper body and legs and my family and I have been joking with him about the fact that he has gotten shorter in the past 5 years or so too.

Im not sure how he is psychologically but he doesn't seem too bad although he can get a mighty temper too.

This is just my personal opinion and I could be wrong. But I have actually brought it up with my mum but I don't think she sees the link and just thought I was clutching at straws. I'm actually concerned about it for his sake as it is said to be one of those things that creeps up on you. But he's one of those guys that wouldn't really care to do any tests to find out.

Do you guys think it could be a genetic link? Maybe I have been blessed with low test genes and a faulty nut that doesn't really help the matter.

Click to expand...

The symptoms you are describing for your dad are extremely common and could have plenty of explanations other than low test. Lifestyle like Dave suggested being the most likely.

Most men 40+ are as you describe your dad. Pot guts with skinny arms and legs.

Basically you have done a little reading on test and now diagnosing everyone that is a little tired with highish body fat and low muscle mass as having low test.

Jeez Fadi, I didn't know cows milk has allot of estrogen in it, I just did a bit of a google search after reading your post and found it may be linked to all sorts of crap for males. I drink it with all my protein drinks (about 3-4 big glasses a day) plus I absolutely love cheese. Maybe I should consider having a few water shakes instead.
Sorry to OP for being off topic, this just caught my eye.

Rambodian said:

Jeez Fadi, I didn't know cows milk has allot of estrogen in it, I just did a bit of a google search after reading your post and found it may be linked to all sorts of crap for males. I drink it with all my protein drinks (about 3-4 big glasses a day) plus I absolutely love cheese. Maybe I should consider having a few water shakes instead.
Sorry to OP for being off topic, this just caught my eye.

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Don't believe everything you read especially on the net. Unless your diet is 100% milk don't worry about it but then you will have bigger problems anyway.

Doing a quick bit of research of foods.

But as far as I can see

Blueberries 15 times more estrogen than milk
Watermelon over double
Olive oil 150 times more
Multi grain bread 4000 times more

If you want to, drink your milk.

Bazza20 said:

Doing a quick bit of research of foods.

But as far as I can see

Blueberries 15 times more estrogen than milk
Watermelon over double
Olive oil 150 times more
Multi grain bread 4000 times more

If you want to, drink your milk.

Click to expand...

Do as you wish. However for entertainment purposes only, you may like to check ths list out: http://dogtorj.tripod.com/id45.html

All the best.

PS: Bazza, I'd really apprectiate if you wouldn't mind sharing the link re the above data with me. At my age, estrogen is a subject that is very dear to my heart. Thank you Sir.


Fadi.