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Anyone used this?
- Thread starter joedirt
- Start date
Right, well Primaforce HAVOC is a prohormone, a 17aMethyl steroidal compound. It has the potential for liver damage, and some increase hormone side effects, such as gyno, aches and pain, impotence and other sexual disfunction. A SERM is a selective estrogen receptor module it inhibits the aromatase enzyme so it cannot convert and cause increased estrogen issues. PCT is post (steroid) cycle therapy.
In summary, to be brutally honest, you dont understand enough to be taking Primaforce Havoc.
Shrek
Fucked up Kunce
Joe,
You have done the correct thing by asking for info first
Have a read here for some good info on Havoc.
Epistane/Havoc/Hemaguno/Methyl E/Epi-Max
Nomenclature: 2a-3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol
Pill Size: 10mg or 12.5mg depending on what brand you use
Dosages: 20-30mg
Side Effects: Milder on liver and lipid levels than other methyls. Known to cause lower back and calf pumps.
Reputation: There has had some spectroscopy and compound identification issues with these products, but from personal experience with it, is still a solid product. It is also a popular compound for use with the 'pulse method' of taking orals. Users can expect to see significant gains in both strength and mass.
You have done the correct thing by asking for info first
Have a read here for some good info on Havoc.
Epistane/Havoc/Hemaguno/Methyl E/Epi-Max
Nomenclature: 2a-3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol
Pill Size: 10mg or 12.5mg depending on what brand you use
Dosages: 20-30mg
Side Effects: Milder on liver and lipid levels than other methyls. Known to cause lower back and calf pumps.
Reputation: There has had some spectroscopy and compound identification issues with these products, but from personal experience with it, is still a solid product. It is also a popular compound for use with the 'pulse method' of taking orals. Users can expect to see significant gains in both strength and mass.
Last edited:
Shrek
Fucked up Kunce
Have a read here. Some excellent info
P.S - Not written by me
from muscleheads4life.com
Epistane/Havoc for Dummies
I have compiled a few commonly asked questions new users ask before getting into epistane by IBE. Please note that this thread is by no means makes you completely knowledgeable. I have not used epistane neither have I used Havoc, this thread is written strictly by looking at the chemical structre and with my over all experience with anabolics in general.
I am 18, I have had 4 years plus lifting experience, I feel Ive reached a plateau and want to use this compound:
I've been more than nice to you... you are a retard ... good bye.
I have just got my epistane , how do I use it?
The safest way to use epistane as with any anabolic is to keep the dosage safely low however still effective enough not to be a complete waste.
Week 1 20mg
Week 2 20mg
Week 3 -30mg
Week 4 30mg
For a starter who is giving over the counter (OTC) anabolics a shot personally never recommend over 30mg. 4 week cycles are proven to be decently effective and safer than longer orals.
For the advanced user:
Week 1 20mg
Week 2 30mg
Week 3 40mg
Week 4 40mg
Can I stack epistane with other prohormones/AAS:
You can.
How do i do it?
Read my other write up
Creating Some Havoc with Epi - The advanced user guide - Bodybuilding.com Forums
What times of the day do I take epistane.
I am old school and will not accept to the pulsing/epi till I see blood work, though it does make sense. Simply being that it is speculation based on the free alcohol. However I still feel the best way to take it would be as follows.
Keep the doses prior to 6pm and around 5-6 hours in difference. Like an anabolic take it with EFA's - hormones are fat soluable. So assuming you work out around 6pm, take one with a EFA/complex carb rich break fast and the next dose with small concentrated carb rich pre workout.
As opposed to SD, its hit on the lipid profile would not be as bad, however till I see blood work its better safe than sorry. Load up on all the ancillaries and accessory supplements as needed.
Does epistane require a PCT?
Like every other anabolic on the block epistane needs a PCT.
What is your favourite PCT and WHY?
wk1: 120mg Fareston, EXEMESTANE - super low dose dependent on body weight
wk2: 90mg Fareston, EXEMESTANE - super low dose dependent on body weight
wk4: 60mg Fareston, EXEMESTANE - super low dose dependent on body weight
wk3: 60mg Fareston, EXEMESTANE - super low dose dependent on body weight
This PCT looks different from your usual Nolvadex sermons. Why?
a) By anecdotal and trial and error I have come to see that the fastest jump back with ZERO downtime is with a SERM+ a real low dose of a scheduled AI
b) Epi if anything will be pretty supressive. I know that I hypothetically sugessted Nolva for SD cycles but looking at the heptatoxicity, I feel that toremifene is better.
Do I need to be worried about gyno on epistane:
Theoretically, no ... but again there is something on paper, something else real world so better safe than sorry. SERM all the way.
What happens if my nuts shrink? Do i stop the cycle?
Not necessary if you ask me. Throw in HCG ew 250ius x 2wice a week, you should be fine. Stop it in the PCT.
Switch out to clomid in the PCT
How do I run this clomid?
Clomid is clomiphine citrate made by E-lily&Co
Day 1- 300mg
Week 1 -150mg
Week 2- 100mg
Week 3- 75
Dont exceed 3 weeks on clomid, avoid the metabolite action.
Where do I get these support chemicals:
Asking for sources is against board rules. Please do not disrespect them. Look in some signatures, they may actually have an answer.
Which is What are other good supplements I can run along side superdrol to combat side effects?
Red Yeast Rice- A fermented rice product, that is our best fighter against negative sides form AAS concerning cardiovascular damage. Comprised of nine different monacolins, which are naturally occurring substances that help regulate cholesterol levels. Along with sterols, and monounsaturated fatty acids, it packs a strong punch.
Dosage : 1.2g ED
COQ10- Although this is abundant in food sources, I feel it prudent to put on here. Not only does it show to help cardiac function, but it?€™s also imperative to be used with Red Yeast Rice. Can be used in combination with other cholesterol lowering supplements.
Celery Seed- A powerful anti-oxidant, shown to not only lower blood pressure, but may have cancer fighting properties as well. And there is evidence to show its ability in aiding the liver.
Hawthorne Berry: Also very useful to lower BP and keep it on check. A great on cycle supplement.
Dosage 1000mg ed on cycle.
Policosanol- A blend of fatty alcohol?€™s, shows great promise in its use as beneficial to cardiovascular health, to include the maintenance of healthy lipid profiles. There is also some theory to a synergistic affect with EFA?€™s.
Dosage : 20mg 2x a day
Saw Palmetto: The prostrate is one delicate part of your system that you do not want to affect under any circumstances.
SP @ 320mg/day
A note on heptatoxicity and liver support:
Liver support : What are your thoughts
While there are many compounds in the market today, most of them which are good too, I stick to my own personal choice for liver protection- Liv 52.
Why?
Here is why
* Capers (Capparis spinosa) - Well-documented hepatic stimulant and protector. Improves the functional efficiency of the liver.*
* Wild Chicory (Cichorium intybus) - Powerful hepatic stimulant, increases bile secretion, acts on liver glycogen and promotes digestion.*
* Black Nightshade (Solanum nigrum) ? Promotes liver and kidney health and has shown hepatoprotective activity in cases of toxicity induced by drugs and chemicals.*
* Arjuna (Terminalia arjuna) ? Tonic for heart and liver. Regulates hepatic cholesterol biosynthesis.*
* Negro Coffee (Cassia occidentalis) ? Digestive and hepatic tonic.*
* Yarrow (Achillea millefolium) ? Stimulative tonic for the liver.*
* Tamarisk (Tamarix gallica) - Hepatic stimulant; also provides digestive support.*
I would recommend a steady dose of Liv 52 starting 2 weeks prior to the cycle. Keep yourself FREE of alcohol on cycle and keep the same dose of Liv 52 in the offcycle.
Liver strength:
Liver toxicity from androgenic compounds and methylation in some cases are over-stated. However, it is of prime importance to understand that the liver is central to all bodybuilding. why? because it is the mother of all detoxifiers, a phoenix in itself that regenerates with damage.
In laymans terms It is also the site where Growth hormone is converted to IGF ... to cut a long story short, if you want to optimize the effect of all these anabolics you are taking, keep that liver of yours fit and fine, because while ON-cycle, you are giving it more damage than necessary
Normally, the liver needs protein to repair itself. During detoxification, however, it may be necessary for a patient to temporarily decrease dietary protein, especially if blood levels of ammonia are high. (Ammonia is a waste product of protein metabolism that can become elevated in advanced cases of liver disease, particularly cirrhosis.) In the absence of elevated ammonia levels, diets adequate in protein can hasten liver regeneration. The sulfur-containing amino acids methionine, cysteine and taurine are particularly important.
I am not a doctor and neither do my opinions construe medical advice. These are just my views after using and researching about this product and answering a number of queries from users who were as confused as me when I first started it. Do not PM me for source please, look in people's signatures,its easier. No I do not work for IBE/RPN or any other supplement company for that matter. These are just my personal opinions.
http://www.muscleheads4life.romp.com.au/showthread.php?p=70
P.S - Not written by me
from muscleheads4life.com
Epistane/Havoc for Dummies
I have compiled a few commonly asked questions new users ask before getting into epistane by IBE. Please note that this thread is by no means makes you completely knowledgeable. I have not used epistane neither have I used Havoc, this thread is written strictly by looking at the chemical structre and with my over all experience with anabolics in general.
I am 18, I have had 4 years plus lifting experience, I feel Ive reached a plateau and want to use this compound:
I've been more than nice to you... you are a retard ... good bye.
I have just got my epistane , how do I use it?
The safest way to use epistane as with any anabolic is to keep the dosage safely low however still effective enough not to be a complete waste.
Week 1 20mg
Week 2 20mg
Week 3 -30mg
Week 4 30mg
For a starter who is giving over the counter (OTC) anabolics a shot personally never recommend over 30mg. 4 week cycles are proven to be decently effective and safer than longer orals.
For the advanced user:
Week 1 20mg
Week 2 30mg
Week 3 40mg
Week 4 40mg
Can I stack epistane with other prohormones/AAS:
You can.
How do i do it?
Read my other write up
Creating Some Havoc with Epi - The advanced user guide - Bodybuilding.com Forums
What times of the day do I take epistane.
I am old school and will not accept to the pulsing/epi till I see blood work, though it does make sense. Simply being that it is speculation based on the free alcohol. However I still feel the best way to take it would be as follows.
Keep the doses prior to 6pm and around 5-6 hours in difference. Like an anabolic take it with EFA's - hormones are fat soluable. So assuming you work out around 6pm, take one with a EFA/complex carb rich break fast and the next dose with small concentrated carb rich pre workout.
As opposed to SD, its hit on the lipid profile would not be as bad, however till I see blood work its better safe than sorry. Load up on all the ancillaries and accessory supplements as needed.
Does epistane require a PCT?
Like every other anabolic on the block epistane needs a PCT.
What is your favourite PCT and WHY?
wk1: 120mg Fareston, EXEMESTANE - super low dose dependent on body weight
wk2: 90mg Fareston, EXEMESTANE - super low dose dependent on body weight
wk4: 60mg Fareston, EXEMESTANE - super low dose dependent on body weight
wk3: 60mg Fareston, EXEMESTANE - super low dose dependent on body weight
This PCT looks different from your usual Nolvadex sermons. Why?
a) By anecdotal and trial and error I have come to see that the fastest jump back with ZERO downtime is with a SERM+ a real low dose of a scheduled AI
b) Epi if anything will be pretty supressive. I know that I hypothetically sugessted Nolva for SD cycles but looking at the heptatoxicity, I feel that toremifene is better.
Do I need to be worried about gyno on epistane:
Theoretically, no ... but again there is something on paper, something else real world so better safe than sorry. SERM all the way.
What happens if my nuts shrink? Do i stop the cycle?
Not necessary if you ask me. Throw in HCG ew 250ius x 2wice a week, you should be fine. Stop it in the PCT.
Switch out to clomid in the PCT
How do I run this clomid?
Clomid is clomiphine citrate made by E-lily&Co
Day 1- 300mg
Week 1 -150mg
Week 2- 100mg
Week 3- 75
Dont exceed 3 weeks on clomid, avoid the metabolite action.
Where do I get these support chemicals:
Asking for sources is against board rules. Please do not disrespect them. Look in some signatures, they may actually have an answer.
Which is What are other good supplements I can run along side superdrol to combat side effects?
Red Yeast Rice- A fermented rice product, that is our best fighter against negative sides form AAS concerning cardiovascular damage. Comprised of nine different monacolins, which are naturally occurring substances that help regulate cholesterol levels. Along with sterols, and monounsaturated fatty acids, it packs a strong punch.
Dosage : 1.2g ED
COQ10- Although this is abundant in food sources, I feel it prudent to put on here. Not only does it show to help cardiac function, but it?€™s also imperative to be used with Red Yeast Rice. Can be used in combination with other cholesterol lowering supplements.
Celery Seed- A powerful anti-oxidant, shown to not only lower blood pressure, but may have cancer fighting properties as well. And there is evidence to show its ability in aiding the liver.
Hawthorne Berry: Also very useful to lower BP and keep it on check. A great on cycle supplement.
Dosage 1000mg ed on cycle.
Policosanol- A blend of fatty alcohol?€™s, shows great promise in its use as beneficial to cardiovascular health, to include the maintenance of healthy lipid profiles. There is also some theory to a synergistic affect with EFA?€™s.
Dosage : 20mg 2x a day
Saw Palmetto: The prostrate is one delicate part of your system that you do not want to affect under any circumstances.
SP @ 320mg/day
A note on heptatoxicity and liver support:
Liver support : What are your thoughts
While there are many compounds in the market today, most of them which are good too, I stick to my own personal choice for liver protection- Liv 52.
Why?
Here is why
* Capers (Capparis spinosa) - Well-documented hepatic stimulant and protector. Improves the functional efficiency of the liver.*
* Wild Chicory (Cichorium intybus) - Powerful hepatic stimulant, increases bile secretion, acts on liver glycogen and promotes digestion.*
* Black Nightshade (Solanum nigrum) ? Promotes liver and kidney health and has shown hepatoprotective activity in cases of toxicity induced by drugs and chemicals.*
* Arjuna (Terminalia arjuna) ? Tonic for heart and liver. Regulates hepatic cholesterol biosynthesis.*
* Negro Coffee (Cassia occidentalis) ? Digestive and hepatic tonic.*
* Yarrow (Achillea millefolium) ? Stimulative tonic for the liver.*
* Tamarisk (Tamarix gallica) - Hepatic stimulant; also provides digestive support.*
I would recommend a steady dose of Liv 52 starting 2 weeks prior to the cycle. Keep yourself FREE of alcohol on cycle and keep the same dose of Liv 52 in the offcycle.
Liver strength:
Liver toxicity from androgenic compounds and methylation in some cases are over-stated. However, it is of prime importance to understand that the liver is central to all bodybuilding. why? because it is the mother of all detoxifiers, a phoenix in itself that regenerates with damage.
In laymans terms It is also the site where Growth hormone is converted to IGF ... to cut a long story short, if you want to optimize the effect of all these anabolics you are taking, keep that liver of yours fit and fine, because while ON-cycle, you are giving it more damage than necessary
Normally, the liver needs protein to repair itself. During detoxification, however, it may be necessary for a patient to temporarily decrease dietary protein, especially if blood levels of ammonia are high. (Ammonia is a waste product of protein metabolism that can become elevated in advanced cases of liver disease, particularly cirrhosis.) In the absence of elevated ammonia levels, diets adequate in protein can hasten liver regeneration. The sulfur-containing amino acids methionine, cysteine and taurine are particularly important.
I am not a doctor and neither do my opinions construe medical advice. These are just my views after using and researching about this product and answering a number of queries from users who were as confused as me when I first started it. Do not PM me for source please, look in people's signatures,its easier. No I do not work for IBE/RPN or any other supplement company for that matter. These are just my personal opinions.
http://www.muscleheads4life.romp.com.au/showthread.php?p=70
Last edited:
zayd687
New member
i dont think any of those on cycle supports like hawthorn berry/policasonal will do anything.
having bloods done at 3-4 times a day 10 weeks, i found it did nothing for my cholestrol.
unfortuantely theres not much u can do for ur high bp/cholestrol apart from diet and if necessary pharma meds to counter the high BP.
i would never use clomid either. bad side effects.
epistane sounds like a regular steroid
with that factor in mind u should do a standard pct.
and i dont think u would need hcg either, its not a long cycle at all, in the 70-80's they didnt use this for any compounds and there is no scientific studies to show that 250 x 2 a week is the needed dose. 250iu is a guideline used.
for epistane id leave the ai's out also... i would never use breast cancer drugs on this.. using an oral to gain and then using breast cancer drugs with that much on cycle support is HAZERDOUS to ur health
u shud stick with nolvadex , chasteberry etc.
it works even if u have 500mg of enth in yur system u'll recover quick.
diet is a major factor also, keeping ur diet clean on any cycle will have good results.. cleaning up my diet i had lower cholestrol levels then the previous.
having bloods done at 3-4 times a day 10 weeks, i found it did nothing for my cholestrol.
unfortuantely theres not much u can do for ur high bp/cholestrol apart from diet and if necessary pharma meds to counter the high BP.
i would never use clomid either. bad side effects.
epistane sounds like a regular steroid
with that factor in mind u should do a standard pct.
and i dont think u would need hcg either, its not a long cycle at all, in the 70-80's they didnt use this for any compounds and there is no scientific studies to show that 250 x 2 a week is the needed dose. 250iu is a guideline used.
for epistane id leave the ai's out also... i would never use breast cancer drugs on this.. using an oral to gain and then using breast cancer drugs with that much on cycle support is HAZERDOUS to ur health
u shud stick with nolvadex , chasteberry etc.
it works even if u have 500mg of enth in yur system u'll recover quick.
diet is a major factor also, keeping ur diet clean on any cycle will have good results.. cleaning up my diet i had lower cholestrol levels then the previous.
HumBug
New member
at the chance that your not going to listen to anyone telling you "not to take it"
this info will be benefitial for you not doing too much damage to yourself
-you will need to start taking hawthorn berry 2 weeks prior to starting cycle and continue it throught the cycle- to lower blood pressure as PH's can raise your BP.
-you will need to take something to help the liver out, such as milk thistle or liv 52 or both- as methyl prohomormones are harsh on the liver.
-you may want to keep on hand some saw palmentto incase of gyno flare ups.
-you need a correct PCT with a SERM, such as Nolva, Clomid, these are prescription only drugs. you are able to obtain "Research Chemical" liquid clomid and tamox to use on your "mice".
Clomid dosage 4- 5 weeks, daily dosage
50mg/50mg/25mg/25mg
Nolva
20mg/20mg/10mg/10mg
oops didnt see shreks post, but surely by now you get the idea
this info will be benefitial for you not doing too much damage to yourself
-you will need to start taking hawthorn berry 2 weeks prior to starting cycle and continue it throught the cycle- to lower blood pressure as PH's can raise your BP.
-you will need to take something to help the liver out, such as milk thistle or liv 52 or both- as methyl prohomormones are harsh on the liver.
-you may want to keep on hand some saw palmentto incase of gyno flare ups.
-you need a correct PCT with a SERM, such as Nolva, Clomid, these are prescription only drugs. you are able to obtain "Research Chemical" liquid clomid and tamox to use on your "mice".
Clomid dosage 4- 5 weeks, daily dosage
50mg/50mg/25mg/25mg
Nolva
20mg/20mg/10mg/10mg
oops didnt see shreks post, but surely by now you get the idea
Last edited:
MaxBrenner
New member
Pretty sure I've got MASSIVE problems with my 'mice'.
JUICE JUNKY
ALL UP IN THAT ASS!!
If you can get it then just go the real deal mate. Nothing beats the real deal. You aint gona start competing or make huge gains off PH's. Up to you.
I highly doubt a standard cycle of Epi would even need a PCT. Epistane is sold over in China as a Birth Control Drug, it is a mild Steroid at that, it will take a very long time to completely shut you down. Having said all that, most guys who run PH's are fairly new to the game and they only do short cycles, so PCT is not neccessary.
If you use real gear for a long enough period of time and you do happen to completely shut yourself down, then once you finish the cycle your test levels are low right. Now the last thing you want to do is take a serm such as nolva because this will lower your estrogen even lower than it already is. After your cycle you need all the estrogen you can get in order to maintain mass, sex drive, energy and appetite etc etc. The only thing you should ever use after a cycle is HCG if needed. Now with HCG this can possibly increase your estrogen a little too high sometimes, in this case then yes you can now add in some nolva, but don't go crazy with it, nolva itself is toxic to the body and has its own side effects. The only other compound i would recommend would be Resveratrol.
Joandainty
New member
Hello there, I am looking for the tips for getting my body in shape. Actually from last one year my body weight and fat is increasing. So I want to reduce my body mass. I have tried lots of workouts too. But still no change in my body mass. So now I have decided to use Epistane for it. Please share some advices for me. Is using these products good for health?
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