Are squat Shoes REALLY raw?

I was thinking about it the other day, and in a RAW lifting comp, are you allowed to use lifting shoes? If they do help balance you out better and people can lift more with them, isn't it giving you an unfair advantage?

I'm not looking to start a fight, more of a discussion

Cheers, Morgan.

My thoughts on are the same as a weight belt, it enables you to lift more, does it make you stronger? Not really.

I don't think they're needed unless you are competing.
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I should recieve my Do Winns on Monday. One of the guys I train with called me a hypocrite because I always harp on about lifting raw.
Now I'm not sure where I stand on this matter.

We can get pretty picky here if you wanted, and inc chalk / rosin...

I think the shoes only help to stabilize and tilt forward slightly, am I correct? i have never seen a pair, wooden soles?

A belt gives your gut something to push against to stabilize your core, and stop you getting a hernia..You could class that as an advantage...

Now a weight suit actually adds recoil to your movements, a definete advantage.

Next they will want raw lifters to rock up like the old greek olympics, buck naked!

you have to wear shoes when you compete don't you? You don't have to wear a belt

perhaps less talk more chalk

PowerBuilder said:

perhaps less talk more chalk

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LOL, maybe heed your own advise.

What's raw then, barefoot and naked? sheesh.

my opinion is that squat shoes are not raw.

i have no problem with people using them, or belts (improper use of the belt i don't like.)

naked is raw, putting on specifically designed equipment changes things.

Lol.

The human body isnt perfect.

It has design flaws - one of them is that the human body moves more efficiently with raised heel shoes. Its a similar deal for a belt as it gives your abdominals something to push against allowing them to take more weight than be limited by the obliques.

I've seen some guys on crossfit forums who reckon you should squat what you cant clean onto your back. Its pretty much the same argument thats presented here with shoes and belts.

I chose a belt, squat shoes and gym chalk as my tools for lifting, which are traditionally accepted as 'raw' powerlifting.

i'm not prepared to see any guy squat naked

Just for a bit of trivia Inzer's bench shirt saved a ridiculous amount of shoulders in the 80s when people started very high volume bench pressing routines with wide grips. Things only got a little 'cheater' when they realised that wearing a very tight benching shirt created an elastic effect that helped the lift.

It's too late PB, I already started filming my vid

I normally squat in stubbies - no shirt - no shoes. Infact thats how I lift full stop, rain hail or shine. The joys of training at home

Nick, or anyone else that pushes 150+ for that matter;
If you squat with shoes, does it actually have a noticable carryover like a shirt or wraps? Or is it more of a comfort thing?

I just got a pair of weightlifting shoes. It didn't increase my back squat as my weakness is at the top, not the bottom, although it's made my squat a lot more solid. However, it did increase my front squat by 12.5kg, because I can stay upright more comfortably and have a stronger push. I did my two FSquat sessions 2 days apart, and in the session with the shoes on, I was already exhausted from a long & heavy MP and back squat workout. So I didn't get stronger, but could lift more weights because of the shoes.

Have never used shirt or wraps or belt so I don't know.

On the topic of using equipments, I came across this a few days ago: http://startingstrength.com/articles/baby_bathwater_gear_gibson.pdf

I know there are people here - great lifters and coach - who are against the use of a belt. However, I feel that the argument for the belt presented in that article - allowing your own ab muscles to work harder & lift more weights - is the same as the one for weightlifting shoes. The shoes allow my legs to push harder against the ground and improve my form, which results in more weights lifted. In fact, it's the same as using chalk: chalk allows my hands to grip onto the bar tighter, so I can deadlift more.

I think that chalk, belt and shoes are in a very different category to shirts/suits and wraps. The former only enables you to make the most of your own muscles, and it's still you doing all the work. The latter actually do the work for you.

Hence I think that the former group belongs in RAW and the latter doesn't.

I don't think anyone NEEDS belt, just like nobody needs the shoes or even chalk, but I don't understand the argument against the belt while accepting shoes and chalk.

Feel free to enlighten me.

Olympic lifting shoes are a matter of stability and safety.

You need a solid base to squat on. A shoe with a wooden heel provides that. They are they only shoe that I have found that has a totally solid sole. Even chucks, ect have some padding that will warp with heavy weight.

Do you 300+kg on your back with a (however small) unstable footing? Of course not.

I have squatted over 180kg numerous times with runners. Bad move. My ankle almost rolled once. Now that would not have been pretty.

The shoes dont give you any extra weight. Thats a myth.

What they do is give you a solid and immovable footing to plant you feet with.

Raw simply means you are not allowed to use any extra equipment other than what is deemed essential for safety. (belts excluded unfortunately)

A t shirt MUST be worn under your lifting singlet during bench and squat, not required on the deadlift.

Shoes MUST be worn during EVERY lift.

Knee high socks MUST be worn during deadlifts.

These arent debatable, you are disqualified if you dont conform.

BELTS on the other hand are allowed, but they are not part of the MINIMUM safety requirements, its personal choice.

NOBODY is allowed to lift without shoes, so how is it not raw? There is NO choice. There is with a belt.

Only someone that has never competed would ask such a question.

Some squatters prefer Chuck Taylors with no heel, very , very few squatters prefer an elevated heel. There is no "control" shoe. If you ban heels, you have to ban no heel, and release a "control" shoe. The sport of powerlifting is already borderline moronic, this would tip it over.

Here is an example. You are not allowed to bounce the bar off your chest, so you dont get an advantage, but you can wear a shirt that blasts the bar off your chest and gives you up to 150kg extra for some lifters. Moronic? no question.

Lets not complicate it further with a "control" shoe.

PTC said:

Raw simply means you are not allowed to use any extra equipment other than what is deemed essential for safety. (belts excluded unfortunately)

A t shirt MUST be worn under your lifting singlet during bench and squat, not required on the deadlift.

Shoes MUST be worn during EVERY lift.

Knee high socks MUST be worn during deadlifts.

These arent debatable, you are disqualified if you dont conform.

BELTS on the other hand are allowed, but they are not part of the MINIMUM safety requirements, its personal choice.

NOBODY is allowed to lift without shoes, so how is it not raw? There is NO choice. There is with a belt.

Only someone that has never competed would ask such a question.

Some squatters prefer Chuck Taylors with no heel, very , very few squatters prefer an elevated heel. There is no "control" shoe. If you ban heels, you have to ban no heel, and release a "control" shoe. The sport of powerlifting is already borderline moronic, this would tip it over.

Here is an example. You are not allowed to bounce the bar off your chest, so you dont get an advantage, but you can wear a shirt that blasts the bar off your chest and gives you up to 150kg extra for some lifters. Moronic? no question.

Lets not complicate it further with a "control" shoe.

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lol, you know my view on belts but powerlifters with flat shoes?

I tend to notice most of the guys in the IPF (low bar, below parallel, feet a little closer in than shoulder width) wear squat shoes.

Its only the american feds with the rediculously wide stance squats who wear chucks (and me!).

I wear chucks or volleys as i think volleys are more comfotable, but chucks are just socially cooler...

I do think squtting with a heel is more comfotable for me personally, and when i get my shoes will be good for cleans squats and when i move onto jerks ect...

I have seen some people using high heeled shoes to deadlfit at my gym, dumb dumb dumb

Morgan said:

I was thinking about it the other day, and in a RAW lifting comp, are you allowed to use lifting shoes?

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Probably, but really everyone should have to lift in the raw. Stark naked.

You're not even allowed to shave anything first.

Dancelot said:

I know there are people here - great lifters and coach - who are against the use of a belt. However, I feel that the argument for the belt presented in that article - allowing your own ab muscles to work harder & lift more weights - is the same as the one for weightlifting shoes.

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You will hear a different opinion in your PT school, and from an osteopath. I don't recall his saying anything about shoes, but he was scornful of belts. And aerobics, and situps.

Of course you need not agree with everything your instructors say during a course, at least not after the exams, but for what it's worth, that's what you'll hear. An educated and experienced opinion against belts.

I only expect to deal with beginners, so it's not really relevant for me. I don't see a belt doing harm or good with someone squatting 80kg, at 200kg it'd be different I'm sure, but 99.9% of the gym-going population does not squat 200kg.

n00bs said:

I have seen some people using high heeled shoes to deadlfit at my gym, dumb dumb dumb

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Why is that no good?

blbarclay said:

Why is that no good?

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Because you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, olympic shoes are about flexability for olympic lifts... squat is not an olympic lift but in a proper clean you basically squat front squat so it helps in that respect..

A dead lift is not an olympic lift and anyheight you add with shoes effictivley is more for the bar to travel. always you want to sit back and balance on your heels.

This is why chucks became so popular for lifters as they were not aloud to lift barefoot but chucks gave them that barefoot feel that they needed..

It has to do with trajectory of the bar and i am not experienced enough to comment on that NPR or markos or fadi will cover it.